Premier League 2018/19 (34 Viewers)

[Dantes]

I actually meant it as a compliment that Tottenham are punching above their weight.

If you want fact based analysis, here it is. Tottenham spend a lot less in wages and net transfer expenditure than Arsenal. Historically transfer spend has not been a reliable predictor for average league position, however wage bills have been an extremely strong predictor in the top European leagues, wage bills can give you a very reliable estimate on what each team's average position will be in the league over the years. Tottenham spend less on wages than the other big five, yet you guys have been in the top four for several years in a row, effectively out performing your expected league position.

Poch and Levy and their teams have to be given a lot of credit, because this was done through developing players and finding undervalued players in the market. How much more they can keep it up is the real question though, because sooner or later teams who spend more on players(like Arsenal) will eventually catch up.

Well, I suppose that's fair. And I don't entirely disagree. We are punching above our current 'financial' weight.

Though we are where we are on wages/transfer fees because of an investment in infrastructure. More than £1bn has been spent on a new stadium, training centre and player accommodations - and it is all state of the art stuff. We couldn't not do this or punching above our weight is the best we could ever hope for.

Arsenal will have a definite financial advantage for another couple of years, but if they don't catch Spurs before then, then we could be on a more level playing field financially. And perhaps then It's not a question of punching above our weight, but cementing our position and pushing on.

I think it's more likely Chelsea are the team that Arsenal push down the table, if the Kroenke buy-out doesn't backfire. Chelsea don't have as much money as they used to have, they are the club that every aspiring and talented young player will now want to avoid and who knows how long before Abramovic loses interest in his toys, and especially whilst he's still not allowed back in to the UK.

 

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[pitbull]

Well, I suppose that's fair. And I don't entirely disagree. We are punching above our current 'financial' weight.

Though we are where we are on wages/transfer fees because of an investment in infrastructure. More than £1bn has been spent on a new stadium, training centre and player accommodations - and it is all state of the art stuff. We couldn't not do this or punching above our weight is the best we could ever hope for.

Arsenal will have a definite financial advantage for another couple of years, but if they don't catch Spurs before then, then we could be on a more level playing field financially. And perhaps then It's not a question of punching above our weight, but cementing our position and pushing on.

I think it's more likely Chelsea are the team that Arsenal push down the table, if the Kroenke buy-out doesn't backfire. Chelsea don't have as much money as they used to have, they are the club that every aspiring and talented young player will now want to avoid and who knows how long before Abramovic loses interest in his toys, and especially whilst he's still not allowed back in to the UK.

wouldn't be so sure about Chelsea dropping down the table yet, Sarri has proved himself to be quite the master of squeezing out the maximum of restricted resources and Italian coaches have a tendency to do very well in EPL.

 

[Fred]

Well, I suppose that's fair. And I don't entirely disagree. We are punching above our current 'financial' weight.

Though we are where we are on wages/transfer fees because of an investment in infrastructure. More than £1bn has been spent on a new stadium, training centre and player accommodations - and it is all state of the art stuff. We couldn't not do this or punching above our weight is the best we could ever hope for.

Arsenal will have a definite financial advantage for another couple of years, but if they don't catch Spurs before then, then we could be on a more level playing field financially. And perhaps then It's not a question of punching above our weight, but cementing our position and pushing on.

I think it's more likely Chelsea are the team that Arsenal push down the table, if the Kroenke buy-out doesn't backfire. Chelsea don't have as much money as they used to have, they are the club that every aspiring and talented young player will now want to avoid and who knows how long before Abramovic loses interest in his toys, and especially whilst he's still not allowed back in to the UK.

When I talk about financial advantage I am talking specifically about wage bill, Arsenal's is still significantly higher than Spurs. Now, theoretically if Arsenal keeps underachieving and not reaching the CL, while Spurs keep reaching the CL, the difference in revenues might eventually allow Tottenham to start paying comparable wages to Arsenal in which case Arsenal's financial advantage would not longer stand. These kind of shifts happen throughout EPL history, I'm still clinging to the hope that you guys will eventually "regress to the mean" and go back to where you belong instead of that happening though

 

[Seven]

People who don't think Zidane is an extremely offensive coach must have missed Madrid's last three CL campaigns...

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[Fred]

People who don't think Zidane is an extremely offensive coach must have missed Madrid's last three CL campaigns...

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and their last two league campaigns

 

[Monty]

People who don't think Zidane is an extremely offensive coach must have missed Madrid's last three CL campaigns...

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That's not an argument...just because the side scores goals doesnt make the coach extremely offensive...zidane is of the same style as lippi , allegri etc.

just because allegri's side scored tons of goals last season doesnt make him an offensive coach

 

[Seven]

That's not an argument...just because the side scores goals doesnt make the coach extremely offensive...zidane is of the same style as lippi , allegri etc.

just because allegri's side scored tons of goals last season doesnt make him an offensive coach

Where did I say that? Tell me. Tell me. Where the fuck did I say that? Tell me, bitch. Where. The. Fuck. Did. I. Say. That.

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[Monty]

Where did I say that? Tell me. Tell me. Where the fuck did I say that? Tell me, bitch. Where. The. Fuck. Did. I. Say. That.

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you didnt say anything...thats why i said thats not an argument...the rest of my post is continuing on from the discussion going on already

 

[Seven]

you didnt say anything...thats why i said thats not an argument...the rest of my post is continuing on from the discussion going on already

Apology accepted.

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[Monty]

Apology accepted.

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umm i think you need to apologise for calling me bitch

 

[Seven]

umm i think you need to apologise for calling me bitch

Come on, you know that's how you like it.

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[Fred]

That's not an argument...just because the side scores goals doesnt make the coach extremely offensive...zidane is of the same style as lippi , allegri etc.

just because allegri's side scored tons of goals last season doesnt make him an offensive coach

So you tell him that his argument that is based on facts is not an argument, but you where you make an absolutely subjective and baseless claim is?

Allegri's sides don't score tons of goals relatively. Even though Juve are dominant in the Serie A, there are several seasons where other teams outscore Juventus over the course of a season. Has Juve ever conceded less goals than other teams in the Serie A under Allegri? I don't think that ever happened.

Zidane's team on the other hand concedes way too many goals for him to be considered a defensive coach, please explain to me how Real Madrid under Zidane outscore Barca every season whether or not they won the league, and concede less every season whether or not they won the league.

I am going the statistics and facts route, because if we are talking styles, we'll be running around in circles. I find Zidane's style to be very offensive, his fullbacks stay high up the pitch, the two CM's are always close to the front three, and only Casemeiro and the two CB's are the ones that stay behind on attacks. But this kind of argument is pointless, because you'll just say thats not what you see.

So forget about our subjective opinions on Zidane's style of play, lets talk about the facts. If you consider him a defensive coach, he's a relatively poor one in comparison to Juve, Barcelona and Atletico who regularly concede less goals than Real does under Zidane. However offensively, Real are one of the teams that score the most goals in both the Liga and CL.

 

[tosh_rose]

I think during this transfer window EPL have been very quiet (except for Liverpool who spent 75m on Alison).
Chelsea, City, Manure used to go crazy.

Wait for it...

"Chelsea have paid the release clause of €80 million (£70m/$92m) for Athletic Bilbao goalkeeper Kepa Arrizabalaga. He is set to become the most expensive goalkeeper in footballing history, ahead of Liverpool's Alisson, who moved from Roma for €72.5m."

 

[Seven]

So you tell him that his argument that is based on facts is not an argument, but you where you make an absolutely subjective and baseless claim is?

Allegri's sides don't score tons of goals relatively. Even though Juve are dominant in the Serie A, there are several seasons where other teams outscore Juventus over the course of a season. Has Juve ever conceded less goals than other teams in the Serie A under Allegri? I don't think that ever happened.

Zidane's team on the other hand concedes way too many goals for him to be considered a defensive coach, please explain to me how Real Madrid under Zidane outscore Barca every season whether or not they won the league, and concede less every season whether or not they won the league.

I am going the statistics and facts route, because if we are talking styles, we'll be running around in circles. I find Zidane's style to be very offensive, his fullbacks stay high up the pitch, the two CM's are always close to the front three, and only Casemeiro and the two CB's are the ones that stay behind on attacks. But this kind of argument is pointless, because you'll just say thats not what you see.

So forget about our subjective opinions on Zidane's style of play, lets talk about the facts. If you consider him a defensive coach, he's a relatively poor one in comparison to Juve, Barcelona and Atletico who regularly concede less goals than Real does under Zidane. However offensively, Real are one of the teams that score the most goals in both the Liga and CL.

Even more importantly, think back to the times Real were under pressure during those games and remember the changes Zidane made. Real were 0-2 down against us and he brought on Asensio at halftime because he knew they needed to score, even though most coaches would have opted to try and prevent the 0-3.

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[Fred]

Even more importantly, think back to the times Real were under pressure during those games and remember the changes Zidane made. Real were 0-2 down against us and he brought on Asensio at halftime because he knew they needed to score, even though most coaches would have opted to try and prevent the 0-3.

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Ya, there are many such instances. He did a similar thing against PSG in the first leg. I just think we'll go around in circles with these kind of arguments though, however hard facts and statistics are very hard to deny/argue against.

 

[Monty]

So you tell him that his argument that is based on facts is not an argument, but you where you make an absolutely subjective and baseless claim is?

Allegri's sides don't score tons of goals relatively. Even though Juve are dominant in the Serie A, there are several seasons where other teams outscore Juventus over the course of a season. Has Juve ever conceded less goals than other teams in the Serie A under Allegri? I don't think that ever happened.

Zidane's team on the other hand concedes way too many goals for him to be considered a defensive coach, please explain to me how Real Madrid under Zidane outscore Barca every season whether or not they won the league, and concede less every season whether or not they won the league.

I am going the statistics and facts route, because if we are talking styles, we'll be running around in circles. I find Zidane's style to be very offensive, his fullbacks stay high up the pitch, the two CM's are always close to the front three, and only Casemeiro and the two CB's are the ones that stay behind on attacks. But this kind of argument is pointless, because you'll just say thats not what you see.

So forget about our subjective opinions on Zidane's style of play, lets talk about the facts. If you consider him a defensive coach, he's a relatively poor one in comparison to Juve, Barcelona and Atletico who regularly concede less goals than Real does under Zidane. However offensively, Real are one of the teams that score the most goals in both the Liga and CL.

First off, I never used the term 'defensive'. The more apt term as another poster said is 'pragmatic'. Just like a descahmps, lippi or allegri.

The initial post in this argument said that zidane is an offensive coach which I dont believe.

Of course they have the better team than most so they will score lots of goals. When they are playing on par teams you often see zidane reverting to 4 midfielders.

They concede more goals than barca and atletico, just means they are not as good defensively as those sides. Especially valverde and simeone.

If you really want to take it to the other extreme, its quite widely said that mourinho is a defensive coach and yet his real madrid team shattered goal soring records.

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Come on, you know that's how you like it.

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Ya, there are many such instances. He did a similar thing against PSG in the first leg. I just think we'll go around in circles with these kind of arguments though, however hard facts and statistics are very hard to deny/argue against.

If you want to use a stats-based argument then do it properly. Dont just cherry pick stats without context. Else its meaningless.

For example, what were goals scored/conceded each year over the years...before/after zidane...same for the other clubs ...what was it for the league

and thats just a start

 

[Fred]

First off, I never used the term 'defensive'. The more apt term as another poster said is 'pragmatic'. Just like a descahmps, lippi or allegri.

The initial post in this argument said that zidane is an offensive coach which I dont believe.

Of course they have the better team than most so they will score lots of goals. When they are playing on par teams you often see zidane reverting to 4 midfielders.

They concede more goals than barca and atletico, just means they are not as good defensively as those sides. Especially valverde and simeone.

If you really want to take it to the other extreme, its quite widely said that mourinho is a defensive coach and yet his real madrid team shattered goal soring records.

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Just means he's flexible.

I don't even know what pragmatic means, but usually people use the term to mean defensive(which IMO is wrong use of the word, but thats another argument)

By the way, Mourinho was only defensive in classicos when he was with Real. But he was obviously a very offensive manager against all other teams in Spain. This happened with Mourinho only in Real. His two stints at Chelsea and his time at Inter and now Utd, his teams almost always conceded less than everyone else but rarely were his teams the top scorers in the league even when he won. His record is very much like Allegri's in that sense.

Zidane is an offensive coach, because his teams when compared to other big teams like Juventus, Barcelona, Atletico, and Bayern scores more goals than these teams, but defensively tends to concede more than those teams do. Those are facts, so you can call Zidane's style what you want to call it, but the fact is that in terms of the outcome of his style, it obviously leans more towards scoring more goals relative to his direct rivals than conceding less goals than them. To me that is an offensive coach; defensive coaches like Mourinho and Allegri tend to concede less than their direct rivals but not always score more or as much.

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First off, I never used the term 'defensive'. The more apt term as another poster said is 'pragmatic'. Just like a descahmps, lippi or allegri.

The initial post in this argument said that zidane is an offensive coach which I dont believe.

Of course they have the better team than most so they will score lots of goals. When they are playing on par teams you often see zidane reverting to 4 midfielders.

They concede more goals than barca and atletico, just means they are not as good defensively as those sides. Especially valverde and simeone.

If you really want to take it to the other extreme, its quite widely said that mourinho is a defensive coach and yet his real madrid team shattered goal soring records.

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If you want to use a stats-based argument then do it properly. Dont just cherry pick stats without context. Else its meaningless.

For example, what were goals scored/conceded each year over the years...before/after zidane...same for the other clubs ...what was it for the league

and thats just a start

Cherrypicking is the last thing you can accuse me of in this case, what are you talking about ?

I just told you he concedes more goals over the course of both complete seasons he managed than Barcelona and Atletico, that is the two full seasons that Zidane has managed in. We don't have anything else to go by, other than the two seasons he managed in.

Oh and by the way, you said Valverde and Simeone. Zidane's team also conceded more goals over the course of a 38 league game season when Real won the league, in that season it was Enrique who was coaching Barcelona. The evidence that Zidane's teams place more emphasis relatively speaking to their rivals on offense than defense is actually overwhelming. At this point you are just clutching at straws.

 

[Monty]

Just means he's flexible.

I don't even know what pragmatic means, but usually people use the term to mean defensive(which IMO is wrong use of the word, but thats another argument)

By the way, Mourinho was only defensive in classicos when he was with Real. But he was obviously a very offensive manager against all other teams in Spain. This happened with Mourinho only in Real. His two stints at Chelsea and his time at Inter and now Utd, his teams almost always conceded less than everyone else but rarely were his teams the top scorers in the league even when he won. His record is very much like Allegri's in that sense.

Zidane is an offensive coach, because his teams when compared to other big teams like Juventus, Barcelona, Atletico, and Bayern scores more goals than these teams, but defensively tends to concede more than those teams do. Those are facts, so you can call Zidane's style what you want to call it, but the fact is that in terms of the outcome of his style, it obviously leans more towards scoring more goals relative to his direct rivals than conceding less goals than them. To me that is an offensive coach; defensive coaches like Mourinho and Allegri tend to concede less than their direct rivals but not always score more or as much.

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Cherrypicking is the last thing you can accuse me of in this case, what are you talking about ?

I just told you he concedes more goals over the course of both complete seasons he managed than Barcelona and Atletico, that is the two full seasons that Zidane has managed in. We don't have anything else to go by, other than the two seasons he managed in.

Oh and by the way, you said Valverde and Simeone. Zidane's team also conceded more goals over the course of a 38 league game season when Real won the league, in that season it was Enrique who was coaching Barcelona. The evidence that Zidane's teams place more emphasis relatively speaking to their rivals on offense than defense is actually overwhelming. At this point you are just clutching at straws.

Lets start at one place before moving to the next.

There is nothing to suggest zidane's team is scoring more goals or conceding more goals.
Only thing that can be said was that last season was a disaster, conceded lots of goals but also scored less goals.

Here are RM's stats over the years:

on average over last 7 years, RM have conceded 38.5 goals, and Zidane was more or less around there (34,41) excpet for the disasterous last season (44)
on avergae over last 7 years RM have scored 108 goals and zidane has been around there (106,110) except for the last season (94)

2017/18 GS: 94 GA: 44
2016/17 GS: 106 GA: 41
2015/16 GS: 110 GA: 34 (zidane joined half way)
2014/15 GS: 118 GA: 38
2013/14 GS: 104 GA: 38
2012/13 GS: 103 GA: 42
2011/12 GS: 121 GA: 32

thats 2 years of mourinho, 2 years off ancelotti and 2.5 years of zidane

 

[Dantes]

Some stuff about Zidane.

Whatever. Wrong thread for that.

Chelsea selling Courtois to Real Madrid. Some sources saying Kovacic having medical at Chelsea today.

 

[Seven]

Whatever. Wrong thread for that.

Chelsea selling Courtois to Real Madrid. Some sources saying Kovacic having medical at Chelsea today.

No one cares about your overrated shit league.