Premier League 2017/18 (2 Viewers)


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Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759
teams in the prem can't defend to save their lives
Ah we're still peddling these myths i see. It may once have been true that serie a teams were the most defense mine and solid at the back, but globalisation has significantly affected football as it has almost every industry. I dont see any discernible difference between English and Italian teams in defending anymore: even differences in styles of football have eroded. Do Lazio or Napoli play "an italian style"? Do Man City play "the English way"? Atletico in Spain?
Fact is foreign managers, the increased accessibility of football matches, imitation and several other factors have made football styles converge to a large degree. No matter how much we love our old stereotypes.
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,480
Ah we're still peddling these myths i see. It may once have been true that serie a teams were the most defense mine and solid at the back, but globalisation has significantly affected football as it has almost every industry. I dont see any discernible difference between English and Italian teams in defending anymore: even differences in styles of football have eroded. Do Lazio or Napoli play "an italian style"? Do Man City play "the English way"? Atletico in Spain?
Fact is foreign managers, the increased accessibility of football matches, imitation and several other factors have made football styles converge to a large degree. No matter how much we love our old stereotypes.
:agree:

Look at Burnley in this years Premier League. Overperformed thru great defending. Tarkowski :tuttosport:

If Italy still produced those world class defenders and Italian teams in Europe could still shut down the opponent, we could talk about the italian defending pedigree, but currently it doesn't shine thru.

The current meta/FOTM in football with high tempo and high pressing and athletic beasts dominating is something Italian teams have had to realise as well and change attitude towards. Not a coincidence that "new" thinkers liek Sarri, Di Francesco and Inzaghi are dominating Italian football.

That said, the low level italian football clubs still defend better than ditto in England, Spain etc., but that's down to old school italian organisation, that still thrives below the top level.
 

pitbull

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2007
11,045
Ah we're still peddling these myths i see. It may once have been true that serie a teams were the most defense mine and solid at the back, but globalisation has significantly affected football as it has almost every industry. I dont see any discernible difference between English and Italian teams in defending anymore: even differences in styles of football have eroded. Do Lazio or Napoli play "an italian style"? Do Man City play "the English way"? Atletico in Spain?
Fact is foreign managers, the increased accessibility of football matches, imitation and several other factors have made football styles converge to a large degree. No matter how much we love our old stereotypes.
but it is true that Premier League doesn't have one single team that's as excellent at defending as Juve or Atletico are :p
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759


:agree:

Look at Burnley in this years Premier League. Overperformed thru great defending. Tarkowski :tuttosport:

If Italy still produced those world class defenders and Italian teams in Europe could still shut down the opponent, we could talk about the italian defending pedigree, but currently it doesn't shine thru.

The current meta/FOTM in football with high tempo and high pressing and athletic beasts dominating is something Italian teams have had to realise as well and change attitude towards. Not a coincidence that "new" thinkers liek Sarri, Di Francesco and Inzaghi are dominating Italian football.

That said, the low level italian football clubs still defend better than ditto in England, Spain etc., but that's down to old school italian organisation, that still thrives below the top level.
I agree wholeheartedly with everything in your post except the bolded part.

I really don't think that's true to be honest. I have followed a bit of the lower level Italian teams in the past couple of years because I follow my boy Ben Ali. The number of times there are high scoring games, and the number of times those teams lose with big margins is not different from the EPL. In fact I think, and this is probably due to the injection of money into the EPL, that the lower level teams in England have become more continental in terms of managers, personnel, and playing style. I wish I had time on my hands to dig into the numbers in the past 3-4 years, but anecdotally I would have to say that I really don't think there is any discernible difference in defending between the EPL and Serie A.


but it is true that Premier League doesn't have one single team that's as excellent at defending as Juve or Atletico are :p
Juve this season have lost a bit of their defensive solidity IMO. But even if we were to suppose that is true, it doesn't really impact the argument about overall defending in a league.
 
Feb 12, 2006
51,807
Ah we're still peddling these myths i see. It may once have been true that serie a teams were the most defense mine and solid at the back, but globalisation has significantly affected football as it has almost every industry. I dont see any discernible difference between English and Italian teams in defending anymore: even differences in styles of football have eroded. Do Lazio or Napoli play "an italian style"? Do Man City play "the English way"? Atletico in Spain?
Fact is foreign managers, the increased accessibility of football matches, imitation and several other factors have made football styles converge to a large degree. No matter how much we love our old stereotypes.
Pocchetino can't teach spurs to defend its a fact. It was actually quite funny that some spurs fan said to me yesterday we were shit as I was travelling into London to celebrate our 36th scudetto as they were going home from London finishing in 4th place and without a trophy again this year. He obviously needed reminding of that and who knocked them out of the CL
 

pitbull

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2007
11,045
Juve this season have lost a bit of their defensive solidity IMO. But even if we were to suppose that is true, it doesn't really impact the argument about overall defending in a league.
I'd say that we looked shaky only when we had no RB or the occasional bad performance like Buffon in Turni vs Spurs or Chiellini in Turin vs Real. But over the whole course of season our defense is again what won us the double imo. Given how much easy balls our midfield gives away and how our 2 argies do pretty much nothing in defense, they've done really well.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759
Pocchetino can't teach spurs to defend its a fact. It was actually quite funny that some spurs fan said to me yesterday we were shit as I was travelling into London to celebrate our 36th scudetto as they were going home from London finishing in 4th place and without a trophy again this year. He obviously needed reminding of that and who knocked them out of the CL
I think you need to learn the difference between facts and opinions.

Tottenham's defensive record has improved substantially under Pochettino, if we define a defensive record by the number of goals a team concedes over a full season. Now that is a fact. An opinion that I would derive from that fact, is that it seems that Pochettino can and has improved Tottenham's defense.

Also, since you started out by saying that EPL teams can't defend, and then you said that Pochettino can't teach Spurs how to defend, implying that Spurs can't defend. Which team in the Serie A other than Juventus has had a more solid defense than Spurs in the Pochettino years?

I'd say that we looked shaky only when we had no RB or the occasional bad performance like Buffon in Turni vs Spurs or Chiellini in Turin vs Real. But over the whole course of season our defense is again what won us the double imo. Given how much easy balls our midfield gives away and how our 2 argies do pretty much nothing in defense, they've done really well.
Ya, in general Juve's defense is still one of the best in Europe, I was just saying that as a general observation in comparison to previous seasons I didn't think the defense was as solid.
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,480
I agree wholeheartedly with everything in your post except the bolded part.

I really don't think that's true to be honest. I have followed a bit of the lower level Italian teams in the past couple of years because I follow my boy Ben Ali. The number of times there are high scoring games, and the number of times those teams lose with big margins is not different from the EPL. In fact I think, and this is probably due to the injection of money into the EPL, that the lower level teams in England have become more continental in terms of managers, personnel, and playing style. I wish I had time on my hands to dig into the numbers in the past 3-4 years, but anecdotally I would have to say that I really don't think there is any discernible difference in defending between the EPL and Serie A.
Below top level does not equate Premier League and Serie A, but the lower tiers. Here you still find "the soul" of each country.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759
Below top level does not equate Premier League and Serie A, but the lower tiers. Here you still find "the soul" of each country.
Ya, I have zero knowledge about the lower tiers to be honest. So I can't answer that. But theoretically I guess that makes sense.
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,480
Ya, I have zero knowledge about the lower tiers to be honest. So I can't answer that. But theoretically I guess that makes sense.
I've watched quite a lot of Championship this season - mostly Norwich games. Albeit increasingly continental in it's expression due to the increased money pool dripping from Premier League, you still see the hard working, tough tackling, kick and rush style. A style that has its charm on its best days.

I follow a few journalists that covers Serie B, besides Empoli it's my impression that it's pretty much defensive/controlled attacking teams down there.

I'm a bit sad, that football has become more and more homogenized with globalisation. I enjoy the clash of football cultures.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759
I've watched quite a lot of Championship this season - mostly Norwich games. Albeit increasingly continental in it's expression due to the increased money pool dripping from Premier League, you still see the hard working, tough tackling, kick and rush style. A style that has its charm on its best days.

I follow a few journalists that covers Serie B, besides Empoli it's my impression that it's pretty much defensive/controlled attacking teams down there.

I'm a bit sad, that football has become more and more homogenized with globalisation. I enjoy the clash of football cultures.
It is quite sad, but that's globalization for you, it will always erode cross border differences in almost everything. I wouldn't have enjoyed watching the EPL otherwise though to be honest, but ya in general there used to be a time when it was always interesting watching different footballing cultures clash.
 
Feb 12, 2006
51,807
I think you need to learn the difference between facts and opinions.

Tottenham's defensive record has improved substantially under Pochettino, if we define a defensive record by the number of goals a team concedes over a full season. Now that is a fact. An opinion that I would derive from that fact, is that it seems that Pochettino can and has improved Tottenham's defense.

Also, since you started out by saying that EPL teams can't defend, and then you said that Pochettino can't teach Spurs how to defend, implying that Spurs can't defend. Which team in the Serie A other than Juventus has had a more solid defense than Spurs in the Pochettino years?



Ya, in general Juve's defense is still one of the best in Europe, I was just saying that as a general observation in comparison to previous seasons I didn't think the defense was as solid.
Let's look at it this way, Spurs are heavily reliant on defending using the offside trap playing the high line, When it goes wrong it goes horribly wrong especially given how out of place Trippier, Davies and Aurier can be at full back they really lack any positional coaching. If you want my honest opinion I think Napoli defend better than Spurs, I don't recall any matches this season where napoli have conceded a lot in any one game or at least as often as Spurs.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759
Let's look at it this way, Spurs are heavily reliant on defending using the offside trap playing the high line, When it goes wrong it goes horribly wrong especially given how out of place Trippier, Davies and Aurier can be at full back they really lack any positional coaching. If you want my honest opinion I think Napoli defend better than Spurs, I don't recall any matches this season where napoli have conceded a lot in any one game or at least as often as Spurs.
That's very arguable. Napoli shipped in a lot of goals in the group stages of the CL, whereas Tottenham didn't. Also if you look at their record over the past three years, it isn't better than Tottenham's in terms of goals conceded in Serie A, and European competitions. But still, all this is debatable and does not help your argument about EPL teams not knowing how to defend relative to Serie A teams.
 
Feb 12, 2006
51,807
That's very arguable. Napoli shipped in a lot of goals in the group stages of the CL, whereas Tottenham didn't. Also if you look at their record over the past three years, it isn't better than Tottenham's in terms of goals conceded in Serie A, and European competitions. But still, all this is debatable and does not help your argument about EPL teams not knowing how to defend relative to Serie A teams.
Well ok I was basing it off domestic matches rather than the CL since napoli don't seem to give a shit about Europe
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759
Well ok I was basing it off domestic matches rather than the CL since napoli don't seem to give a shit about Europe
They didn't give a shit about the Europa league. That's why I thought it unfair to mention it.

Though I think we can both agree that they did care when they were in the CL.
 

Dantes

Senior Member
Dec 15, 2017
616
Pocchetino can't teach spurs to defend its a fact. It was actually quite funny that some spurs fan said to me yesterday we were $#@! as I was travelling into London to celebrate our 36th scudetto as they were going home from London finishing in 4th place and without a trophy again this year. He obviously needed reminding of that and who knocked them out of the CL
Well ok I was basing it off domestic matches rather than the CL since napoli don't seem to give a $#@! about Europe
The following are facts about Pochettino's Spurs.

2015-16: Conceded least goals in PL
2016-17: Conceded least goals in PL
2017-18: Conceded 3rd least goals in PL (whilst playing 38 'away' games).
 

Jethro

Senior Member
Mar 6, 2018
2,353
The following are facts about Pochettino's Spurs.

2015-16: Conceded least goals in PL
2016-17: Conceded least goals in PL
2017-18: Conceded 3rd least goals in PL (whilst playing 38 'away' games).
City conceded just 27 goals this season. Is their defence that good? Is Pep that good?
 
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