Paris 2024 Summer Olympics (3 Viewers)

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
84,868
From what I understand she wasn't necessarily born 'male'.

Let me be very frank: I think any trans athlete born a biological male should be banned from female sports on a competitive level, even if I have no ill will towards them. The advantages are numerous and it's never a fair fight. When it comes to trans athletes the answer is easy.

DSD is not really as simple as XY = male and XX = female though. One of the more famous examples is androgen insensitivity syndrome. These are people born with XY chromosomes, but their bodies do not respond to androgens on a cellular level. From the outside they can look and function completely like women (albeit they are not fertile obviously). It would be really difficult to categorise them as strictly male. And frankly their condition is probably not helpful in sports.

In this case it would appear though that there is an obvious benefit from a competive point of view and personally I would exclude her.

But even so this debate is never as simple a line as people say. For example we have doping tests that measure the amount of red blood cells and we say that if you have more, you must be cheating. But humans evolve. What if someone evolves to be able to hold more red blood cells? We don't accuse Bolt of cheating for having better achilles tendons. And even worse: sprinters are flagged for false starts when they react 'more quickly than humanly possible'. Who is to determine what is humanly possible? I'm definitely not capable of running a 9.58 100m and I'm human.
Problem is that if you come across people who are adamant that gender, or sex, is exclusively binary, they're forced to face a lot of edge cases in biology that make minds explode. Calling all variations "trans" is how the brain-dead avoid cognitive dissonance.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,363
Problem is that if you come across people who are adamant that gender, or sex, is exclusively binary, they're forced to face a lot of edge cases in biology that make minds explode. Calling all variations "trans" is how the brain-dead avoid cognitive dissonance.

I understand the need for simplicity in sports. You want categories that are obvious to anyone. And you want categories, because otherwise you'd get the same winners over and over again. If you allow adults to compete with children and women with men, the performances of children and women no longer hold any real value.

That being said, sports is inherently unfair.

There is nothing that discriminates more:

- You're less likely to win an Olympic gold medal after 25;
- You're unlikely to win Olympic gold in the 100 meter as a white atlete, worse yet, you're unlikely to rank top 8;
- Your chances of winning any swimming events go down as a male under the height of 180 cm.
- You're not winning the marathon if you were born with big calves
- ...

The discrimination is endless.

So while I understand the need for rules and regulations, the fact is, it's always going to suck for someone.
 

ALC

Ohaulick
Oct 28, 2010
46,582
She has a vagina so by most standards she’s a woman. I’m thinking the Olympics haven’t come across this before so maybe they need to change their standards.

At the end of the day, professional sport boards will have different rules than Olympics so you can’t point at IBA and what they did and expect Olympics to do the same.

also, she’s lost to women before so I don’t think she’s that fucking strong that the Italian took one punch and had to quit. If she was that strong, she would’ve knocked her out. Just pussy behavior by the Italian imo

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Her record is 12-5 lol, that’s mediocre
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,363
She has a vagina so by most standards she’s a woman. I’m thinking the Olympics haven’t come across this before so maybe they need to change their standards.

At the end of the day, professional sport boards will have different rules than Olympics so you can’t point at IBA and what they did and expect Olympics to do the same.

also, she’s lost to women before so I don’t think she’s that fucking strong that the Italian took one punch and had to quit. If she was that strong, she would’ve knocked her out. Just pussy behavior by the Italian imo

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Her record is 12-5 lol, that’s mediocre
They have. With Caster Semenya most notably. She won gold on the 800 meters in London (silver initially, but the Russian athlete doped) and Rio.
 

AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
31,910
She has a vagina so by most standards she’s a woman. I’m thinking the Olympics haven’t come across this before so maybe they need to change their standards.

At the end of the day, professional sport boards will have different rules than Olympics so you can’t point at IBA and what they did and expect Olympics to do the same.

also, she’s lost to women before so I don’t think she’s that fucking strong that the Italian took one punch and had to quit. If she was that strong, she would’ve knocked her out. Just pussy behavior by the Italian imo

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Her record is 12-5 lol, that’s mediocre
Yeah, honestly I think all the talk surrounding the issue got to her psychologically before the match even started.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,363
I think the same, and the mental part is crucial in sports
It's not as easy as saying she let it get to her.

This isn't track and field, swimming or basketbal we're talking about. This is boxing. If you're facing an opponent that is overwhelmingly stronger than you, you face the risk of significant injury. This situation should never have happened.
 

ALC

Ohaulick
Oct 28, 2010
46,582
It's not as easy as saying she let it get to her.

This isn't track and field, swimming or basketbal we're talking about. This is boxing. If you're facing an opponent that is overwhelmingly stronger than you, you face the risk of significant injury. This situation should never have happened.
how have other women won against her then?
She’s 12-5. Not a great record by any means
 
Jun 16, 2020
12,435
It's not as easy as saying she let it get to her.

This isn't track and field, swimming or basketbal we're talking about. This is boxing. If you're facing an opponent that is overwhelmingly stronger than you, you face the risk of significant injury. This situation should never have happened.
I’m quite invested in boxing myself, in fact I literally did it last night, so you don’t have to tell me about that.

The organisation has the duty to protect the athletes so I agree, but I have to confess I’m not familiar with woman who can have the XY chromosome.

I can confirm though that the mental part is huge already with sparring, and if you feel inferior to your opponent it effects you a lot.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,363
how have other women won against her then?
She’s 12-5. Not a great record by any means
I understood your point.

I'm just saying that fear is quite a different factor in boxing compared to other sports and that, really, there was no need for this to happen in the first place.
 

ALC

Ohaulick
Oct 28, 2010
46,582
I understood your point.

I'm just saying that fear is quite a different factor in boxing compared to other sports and that, really, there was no need for this to happen in the first place.
it’s combat sports.

someone could’ve said they don’t want to fight Tyson because he’s insane and they’re afraid of him and they’d get laughed at.

from the Olympics criteria, she’s a woman. She was able to meet whatever was required of her to compete, and given historical data there’s nothing to indicate this particular person has an unfair advantage in the ring.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,363
it’s combat sports.

someone could’ve said they don’t want to fight Tyson because he’s insane and they’re afraid of him and they’d get laughed at.

from the Olympics criteria, she’s a woman. She was able to meet whatever was required of her to compete, and given historical data there’s nothing to indicate this particular person has an unfair advantage in the ring.
No, the data suggest she isn't a great boxer. That is something else entirely. She definitely has an advantage if she has a higher testosterone production.

And yes, she may have the criteria to compete at the Olympics. But whether those criteria are correct are at the heart of the discussion. Like I said before, this is not an easy debate and there has to be room for nuance. But in this particular instance I understand why other competitors have a problem with it.
 
Jun 16, 2020
12,435
it’s combat sports.

someone could’ve said they don’t want to fight Tyson because he’s insane and they’re afraid of him and they’d get laughed at.

from the Olympics criteria, she’s a woman. She was able to meet whatever was required of her to compete, and given historical data there’s nothing to indicate this particular person has an unfair advantage in the ring.
I think it can get to you that you can train as much as you want, your opponent will be stronger anyway simply due to the testosterone advantage
 

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
75,270
it’s combat sports.

someone could’ve said they don’t want to fight Tyson because he’s insane and they’re afraid of him and they’d get laughed at.

from the Olympics criteria, she’s a woman. She was able to meet whatever was required of her to compete, and given historical data there’s nothing to indicate this particular person has an unfair advantage in the ring.
I kind of agree with this to an extent, but I suppose women feel it less because there isn't often that real knock out power - KO% are very low even amongst the best and biggest. So they are going to feel it if someone with indiscernably male physical advantage starts punching them in the face.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,363
I kind of agree with this to an extent, but I suppose women feel it less because there isn't often that real knock out power - KO% are very low even amongst the best and biggest. So they are going to feel it if someone with indiscernably male physical advantage starts punching them in the face.
It's not just physical either. Testosterone reduces fear and increases aggression.

It's pretty ironic to blame a woman for having fear, when, if she had the same testosterone levels as her opponent, she might not have had that fear.
 

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
75,270
It's not just physical either. Testosterone reduces fear and increases aggression.

It's pretty ironic to blame a woman for having fear, when, if she had the same testosterone levels as her opponent, she might not have had that fear.
Yes and women will default more to crying when they are scared or frustrated, but I find men are likelier to get angry, due to this.
 

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