Of the relative importance of football coaches (1 Viewer)

River

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2004
2,261
#21
++ [ originally posted by Torkel ] ++
Hmm... I don't think your history lesson backs up your point that much, first and foremost I think it shows that the game changes, coaches often doesn't.

A manager will to me always be very important, as he is the one who best knows the players and team, and in his own way tries to get the most out of it. I also don't agree with River, Sven has been very important for England and certainly doesn't do nothing, if he hasn't had the England job in the Portugal match they would have won, IMO.

I can't really respond more thorough now, I will return.
Very important in what? Choosing the lineup? You really think Steve McClaren couldnt do that just as well. Infact it always seems to be McClaren who is the one shouting instructions.

And about Sven doing nothing, I dont mean he never does nothing, everyone does something. But its well known that during training etc he dosent do anything, the other staff take training sessions etc.

And although i know he is a decent manager, i do think his position is much overrated. There are alot of people who could do his job and those people wouldnt embarass the nation the way Sven does. Also he dosent deserve the wage he is on, he even stated that he thinks he should make more. Its rediculous.
 

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Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,444
#22
++ [ originally posted by River ] ++


Very important in what? Choosing the lineup? You really think Steve McClaren couldnt do that just as well. Infact it always seems to be McClaren who is the one shouting instructions.

And about Sven doing nothing, I dont mean he never does nothing, everyone does something. But its well known that during training etc he dosent do anything, the other staff take training sessions etc.

And although i know he is a decent manager, i do think his position is much overrated. There are alot of people who could do his job and those people wouldnt embarass the nation the way Sven does. Also he dosent deserve the wage he is on, he even stated that he thinks he should make more. Its rediculous.
There's a lot more to being a coach then choosing the lineup River. Ever hear of something called tactics? :rolleyes:
 

River

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2004
2,261
#23
Yeah :D but we've all seen Sven balls up tactics time and again. And like i mentioned earlier he changed his tactics when the players asked.

noones saying a manager isnt important, but today they certainly are overrated :)
 

Torkel

f(s+1)=3((s +1)-1=3s
Jul 12, 2002
3,537
#24
++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
Yeah :D but we've all seen Sven balls up tactics time and again. And like i mentioned earlier he changed his tactics when the players asked.
IMO, Sven funked up both the Portugal and France match when he chose an extremely defensive tactic after England's goals were scored. I don't think McLaren would have done the same, and that would have had great impact on England's Euro.
 

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
#25
Kaiser,

WOW. That was one hell of a post. Whether I agree or not doesnt matter because you stated your argument cleary in very critical stance backed up by valid examples. My only criticsm would be that the use of dichotomy (Players vs Managers) will always create controversy and other side of view.:). Let see my persectives on this issue.
Personally I dont think it is either players or coach, but both (And I am sure Kaiser will agree to that and he was merely litterating which one he would should had that been his only option).
Firstly, we have to ask why there are managers. If there arent any use then surely Chairman will not hire them certainly not for millions they get. As far as I am concerned managers are there to do two things. Most important role they have to perform IMO is that they are there too choose players. You may argue choosing players arent that important but personally it is the most important job manager has to perform. The team without a manager will have a chaos in fielding a team because the interests of individual players may clash with the team. Every player will want to play, and the likely result will be conflict between them. Manager resolves this problem by having legitimacy, and authority to pick players that he feels will provide the best chance of winning, and the fact that his interest is only served by team performances reinforces his role as a team chooser. Second important function of management is taking the blame for losses and poor run of form. Managers are there too take the blame - it is unfair but that is what they are paid to do and money which most of us would not dream to earn in rest of our lives. Without a manager, individual players within the team has to take the blame, and due to the nature of soccer it isnt always clear who to blame. If the pass goes to right but the runner is moving to left, is the mistake of passer or failure to read the pass the major cause of missed pass? Players just cannot resolve this conflict peacefully themselves, and manager helpts the team to go around this serious potential team breaking problem.
The common them between this two major role is that the presence of manager helps the team to build teamwork and trust and allows players to concentrate on opposition by providing the medium through which possible conflict of interests can be solved in peaceful way. And after all, whenever the team is successful we often praise the manager for building teamwork into the squad, and having these qualities are seen as essential trait of good manager.
Kaiser is right in that it is players who contributes on the pitch and they win the game. However, the manager is also part of the success because he helps the team to perform on the pitch through his presence.
Inter for example always had great bunch of individual players but they almost suffered a humiliation of being relegated first time in their history. Having good players are necessary condition of a fine team, but having players that complement each other is just as essential element of a dynasty. Is it matter of co-incidence that Milan had rock solid defence based on fine understanding between their players. Ruud Gullit, and Van Basten had best understanding of each other. The wing play of Donadoni, and Eranio helped to stretch the defence and provided critical assits to the likes of Van Basten, Daniell Massaro, Marco Simoe, et al. The 1992 Milan is the finest club team ever assembled not just because they were so talented that Jean Pierre Pappin had to often spend a time on the stands :D but Rossineri also had most balanced team at the time. And of course, Sacchi was instrumental in creating a balanced team because he was the one who had a vision, and asked Silvio to right a fat pay check for Van Bastens, Gullits, Rykaards, Desaillys, Donadonis, Savicevic, Boban, Pappin, Laudrup, et al. Claudio Ranieri with 150m Euros to spend couldnt win a single competition last year. Spending money is good, but not when you pay lavish sums to Joe Cole, Glen Johnson, Makelele et al. It is chairman who ultimately have a say in transfer decisions, but managers are often the ones who notices talents and asks for them via consulting with team scout and coaches. Trap despite all the talents he had on his disposal couldnt win a single match against quality opposition in the major championships (which Equador and Bulgaria isnt). The team was often in dispute with each other, coaches, and played a style which obviously didnt fit into their attributes. If the issue is whether coach should exert his style over available players attributes, then the answer is firmly no. A good manager is the obviously notices and recognizes the players strenght and weaknesses and try to harnish them. However, in the club management the coach has the weapon of buying and selling players so he is far more capable of exerting his vision into the team. In this sense, coaches who knows what he wants and who he wants can have great impact on the team a la Fabio Capello than ordinary ones.
In the end, no-management isnt a replacement for bad management. The issue is how to get it right and do better than others. As for choosing players or coaches, I would choose a coach who can win the trust of players. After all, that is part of the role manager has to perform.:)
 

gray

Senior Member
Moderator
Apr 22, 2003
30,260
#26
I just read Libero's first post, and it was interesting and enlightening, but more because of the history lesson than the points made... maybe that's just because I've always thought the same thing, but whatever.

I think that the estimation of a coach influencing 10% of the result was correct in general, but I think the points at hand (the role of a coach outside of simply picking the lineup) is an extremely relevant one. Since we've already talked about coaches inheriting good players and winning titles with them, I'll focus more on the difference a coach can make off the pitch (even though technically he's not really on the pitch)

Let's take for example two national teams that surprised the world: The Korean national team of 2002 and more recently, Greece at Euro 2004. Before I hear the cries of "You just want an excuse to talk about Korea" and "they only got that far because they cheated", that's not my point at all.

Regardless of all the controversy surrounding Korea's run to the semi-finals, anyone who watched a single match of theirs and compared it with the crap that the Koreans churned out in previous tournaments, can't deny that they went from a bunch of rag-tag wimps who couldn't last for 45 minutes against any decent country's U-16 side, to a side that could run faster and longer, and worked harder than their opponents, as well as having the ability to score goals that aren't a result of chaos in the box, or a freekick deflected off a Mexican defender's head... And why is this, you ask?

The Koreans didn't take drugs, and they didn't bribe the cameramen to make them look like they were running faster or to splice footage of them running in the 1st minute of the match into footage of the 120th minute. The simple reason they became a competitive force is because of a foreign coach who knew the game and knew what it took to compete at the highest level. I saw a lot of footage of Korean training sessions, and it often ran from early in the morning till the sun was beginning to set, with the players wringing pints of sweat from their shirts at the end of the day.

Take a look also at the starting lineups that Hiddink chose to compete at the World Cup. I don't expect many of you to know about many Korean players, but out of the starting lineup that competed at WC2002, only 4 of those players were part of the France 98 squad. I do concede that a lot of the '02 squad were quite young, but there were a lot of shock ommisions (national favourites) from that squad, and Hiddink was heavily criticised for not including them. Not only that, he called up several players who were nearing the twilight of their careers, and who had no experience at international level, and IMHO, if a coach of his caliber wasn't appointed, the players who were called up to the squad would have been of a much lower quality.


Argh far out, I crapped on about Korea too long. You all know what happened with Greece, the coach picked the right players and chose the perfect tactics with the resources that he had. :blah:
 

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
#27
Gray,

Firstly I do think Korea were lucky to get into the Semi's, but I do see your point. The same case could be made of Japan as well.:).
But I think Japan and Korea was unusal and it would be hard to compare with the European coaching role in general. The matter of fact is that we Eastern Asian nations lacked or still lacks soccer knowledge, or professional infrastructure (Not just developing players) of a good team. Training method wasnt scientific, too much cronism in picking players, tactical nous not just from coaches but players, and evaluating players. There is no doubt that Guus Hiddink and Troussier are fantastic coaches and now throughly revered for what they achieved. However, I doubt whether they are better managers than Capello, or Lippi, or vice verse whether Capello, Lippi, Fergueson can do better job with Japan or Korea.
The matter of fact is the role of coaches defer with each teams and nations, and the critical element of success is not whether coach has a great reputation blah blah blah but whether his attributes fit into the need of a team his coaching. In this sense, Hiddink and Troussier had much more room where they can contribute because of lack of development in our part, but that is not always the case. Nonetheless, as I have previously said great coaches are necessary to become a successful team, and the good ones give trust to the players. Hence the good one doesnt create players vs manager issue in the first place. After all, you win as a team, and loose as a team. Likes of Jeff Van Gundy, Zeman should note.
 

gray

Senior Member
Moderator
Apr 22, 2003
30,260
#28
Ahh crap, you read my mind :wallbang:

I forgot to say that it applies less, as the standard of the game gets higher. What I meant to say was, it's probably about 10% at the highest level of football, and the influence of a coach is much higher when the foundations are poorer. Thanks for summarising it for me though ;)
 

Jun-hide

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2002
2,068
#29
No problem.:D

But I agree - Coaches are key element to the success. It is just that the role they have to perform differs with the standard of football, and the differences with characters invovled.
Having said that, if it came down to winning a one-off tournament and had a choice between players and coaches then I would undoubtedly choose the former. But in reality good coaches gets on well with his players (Not always the case but in general yes), and therefore the conlict we are discussing isnt there in the first place.
 

River

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2004
2,261
#31
++ [ originally posted by Torkel ] ++

IMO, Sven funked up both the Portugal and France match when he chose an extremely defensive tactic after England's goals were scored. I don't think McLaren would have done the same, and that would have had great impact on England's Euro. [/QUOTE

Yeah I agree. I just think hes completely overrated. I guess he really is one of those lucky managers :D And even if he was a crap manager and was treated normal i wouldnt mind. Its this whole we must keep Sven at all costs crap that annoys me.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,444
#32
++ [ originally posted by Torkel ] ++

IMO, Sven funked up both the Portugal and France match when he chose an extremely defensive tactic after England's goals were scored. I don't think McLaren would have done the same, and that would have had great impact on England's Euro.
Yeah I have to agree. Like I said before, Sven should have stayed at Lazio. And I want to point out about England, that it isn't all the coaches fault, its more of the players. The style of play in which English players are enraptured with doesn't help either. Save the kickball for the playground kids. :D
 

River

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2004
2,261
#33
Andy no offence but i saw more Italian kick ball than English kick ball at Euro2004.

I swear the amount of hypocritical posts i see on this forum are starting to get out of control. Even from people who supposidly know there stuff ;)
 

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