++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
I am glad to hear you state that you feel sorry about what happened, because I have discussed this issue with some of your compatriots in the past, and even if they may have been right about some points, I have never heard one word of compassion for the victims on their behlaf.
I find this very strange and hope you dont take this as a norm amongst english fans.
At the end of the day we are all Human beings and as a human I cannot understand anyone without compassion at such a tragedy.
On a secondary note there is also the fact I have been a juve fan for not too far off of 30 years so of course i would find this upsetting... But as I said any decent human would have compassion at such events as i do for the great toro team and manu team whose fates were decided at the hands of plane crashes.
I was in Brussels for the Belgium-Italy game. As I said, although the most violent events were recorded in Charleroi, Brussels too had its share of vandalism and riots. Hooligans who had come to Belgium without their game ticket (for the England-Germany game) decided they were not going to leave the country without making their presence noticed. Brussels was a city under siege that night. In fact, the reason it did not degenerate as badly as in Charleroi is because the police adopted a zero-tolerance policy there, blocking every access to the historical center. So the hooligans could only carry out their action on a more disseminated area. There were fans from all over in Brussels that night , but the only ones I saw clashing with the locals were wearing an England shirt...
I haven’t omitted the Germans : I did say they have a problem with hooliganism in major tournaments as well (it was German thugs who sent that French cop into a coma in France ‘98).
As i said ,I do not deny our "fans" wrong doing... Unfortunately these are things we see.
But the incidents you mention do highlight that correct actions by police have a large bearing on the outcome of such events.
With different policing in charleroi the events would have been very different.
If you allow people to do exactly as they please it is only natuarl that eventually there will be trouble.
The racism card?? What are you talking about? I never said English are racist. I am actually quite an admirer of England’s “salad bowl” model, where immigrants do indeed seem better integrated than in most other European nations. The English hooligans engaged in fights with the local muslim population is all I said. Brussels and Marseille have huge muslim minorities, and they constitute a sensible (to say the least) fringe of the population. Sad but true, many young muslims in Europe are quite desperate people who often turn into little thugs. So when English thugs meet their muslim counterparts, shit is bound to happen.
God forbid me from walking into the NAZIO curva. I know very well what sort of specimens populate it. Having once eaten in a fiercely pro-Lazio restaurant in Rome where the fans would call the coloured players from the other team “africani” (which can be insulting in that context) and make chimpanzee-like sounds was enough for me to know what utter morons I was dealing with.
The reason i thought you were talking racism was down to the way you posted the original statement... Jus through your need to mention that the parties involved were muslim etc in itself implied the events were to one extent or another racially motivated... I apologise for the assumption though I do think racism is a strong influence on hooliganism in certain countries and that includes games involving certain teams in italy.
Regarding Italia '90, England were seeded in Cagliari as you may remember, and incidents did happen there, although they weren’t as bad as, say, in Marseille.
I said trouble free, as what we are talking about here is the odd scuffle and drunken banter... You have to seperate such meaningless things from real trouble or hooliganism.
Sorry but it is the sad truth. The reason why the incidents were less serious in Italy or did not happen in Sweden ’92 is because there was no Schengen Space yet, i.e. there was no free-movement of citizens across EU countries. It was therefore much easier for the authorities of the host country to check who was entering it. Now that there are no passport controls anymore at the border, a hooligan can travel wherever he wishes in Europe without being disturbed. Belgium for instance is quickly accessible from England either by plane, Eurostar or even by ferry boat – one is simply spoilt for choice.
And indeed, the two tournaments that took place in Continental Europe since 1992, when customs have been suppressed (France ’98 and Belgium/Holland 2000) were marked by violence. By contrast, Japan/Korea was peaceful, more so because it’s impossible to rally that part of the world quickly and without a visa than because the Japanese police “did a good job”. The same would probably have applied to USA ‘94, had England qualified.
You are correct to a certain degree, but even with todays lax security you still need to show a passport to cross borders... something you cannot do if we have confiscated said individuals passport.
Unfortuanately not all people that are gonna cause trouble are known and as such, whilst we remove passports from the known there will allways be the odd one that gets through.
Back to my original point... The english reputation is far beyond the trouble we have actually been involved in... people can say... oh but there was only no trouble due to ... Insert words here.....
But the simple fact is, whatever reason you come up with why nothing (or insignificant events only) happened... Nothing did indeed happen and as such we are undeserving of such a reputation... especially when you look at the likes of turkey who continuosly get away with hooliganism and the such without any real word said against them... Jus look at the majority of their euro quali campaign... Hardly any games went without incident...
At the end of the day ... My biggest point... Both in football and in life itself... Everyone are equal and as such should be treated fairly and in the same fasion... The things we are harassed for others do time and time again without comment.
I am sure there are a lot of things we can learn from the English solution against domestic hooliganism. Incidentally I have just read an interview of Eriksson on the Repubblica today (still available online if you understand italian) where he criticises the Italian Federation for its laxism on hooliganism. One interesting point he makes is that an English fan who arrives ten minutes before the game at the stadium and confortably takes a seat ready to watch the game is less likely to become violent than a fan who arrives three hours in advance and stands up waiting for the game to begin, as is the case in Italy.
Thanks... I will look out for that interview.
That is a good point.
In england the majority take there seats about 15 mins before kick off and are straight into the game whereas in italy the fans are sitting there twiddling their thumbs getting bored hours before kick off with nothing to do... Problems are innevitable.
Personally, where ever i am i tend to arrive at my seat about 15 mins before kick off as i would in england, unless i am sitting in the press box, which is different.
The juve - milan game a couple of weeks back was probably the earliest i have been at a game in ages, due to me having a meeting with someone at the stadium and the fact that we were not all sitting togeather so i had to go and see everyone before kickoff... I was in Curva scirea, my wife and daughter in poltroncine and several friends in curva nord.
Even a couple of hours before the game there were alot of people either allready seated or milling around looking for their seats.
Seeing as probably the worst events that night happened before kickoff (and outside afterwards) then i see sven as raising a good point I had not really thought about until now.
But I still think that the "us against them" mentality prevailing in italian stadiums to which Incubo was alluding earlier will make it very hard for us to take certain measures, such as removing barriers for instance.
AS I said earlier if changes are gradual (over a few seasons) I dont see it being a problem... obviously if you jus ripped out barriers etc tomorrow... all hell would break loose
…Yet many hooligans still manage to rally the host country en masse. Some of the more prominent thugs may be prevented from leaving the country, but I am afraid that many hooligans don’t have an official criminal record yet (or just one that isn't relevant enough), so there is no way to legally stop them from moving abroad, even more so in the passport-free EU area.
See above
To conclude, I am not trying to say that the English hooligans are the worst (maybe they used to be, but we surely caught up very rapidly). I just want to point out that, whereas our hooligans will almost exclusively act on home soil, yours have a habit of “exporting” themselves quite well, so what used to be essentially your problem becomes our problem too.
Yes you are right to certain extent (as i have said many times reputation overshadows reality quite alot) But you also have to accept that with our reputation we are a target for many people.
Others realise that if they give certain fans a bit of provocation they will react ten fold... This is the way several problems have occurred in cl matches.
I can tell you now... If italy continue the way they are going and get a reputation for it they will find themselves under constant provocation when abroad as well and innevitably someone will react to it.... It only takes one very small group to react and you suddenly have world war 3... And when it does kick off it normally the provoked not the provocateers that look worse and as such are held to blame.
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