++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
I wasn't at Heysel but have a friend of my father who attended the game and, well, I'd like to ask him what happened there, but the poor man is mentally disturbed and barely remembers his name since that fateful day, let alone the events that took place. I have seen documentaries on that tragedy though and, although that infamous Z stand at Heysel played a crucial role in the massacre, it emerges that the scouce hooligans had already laid their cards on the table in the hours preceding the game, starting brawls in Brussels' pubs and harassing the locals. At the end of the day, 39 people died, all of them Italian, and nothing will bring them back.
See again another that refuses to accept any blame for juve fans... You dont mention their charges, you dont mention the gun toting juve fans etc etc.
As i said to robert we shouldnt really be arguing about such a tragic event... but in commenting on it we should be fair and look at the facts, something many here are failing to do.
I am as sorry as anyone about what happened, but we have to be fair and just.
Now i have absolutely no wish to argue the point or change your mind.
My view on the subject comes purely from the fact i worked on 2 documentaries regarding heysal, for both italian and british tv.
In so doing I beleive i saw all or as close to as possible the facts regarding the incident as well as bearing witness to over 60 interviews with people that were there... from both sides.
I can tell you from those interviews there were next to no juve fans that didnt accept their fans played their part in what happened and the majority held the venue as the major part in causing the deaths(causing death NOT causing trouble)
Anyway heysal is a done discussion
I was however in Belgium during Euro 2000, and although I missed the events in Charleroi, I saw first hand English hooligans start fights with Brussels' arab minority in the historical centre, causing the police to shut down the whole area. These events, although rather scary, were barely reported, so I imagine what a living hell Charleroi must have been (and even if the thugs were welsh, it did happen in the context of England playing in a tournament abroad). I guess the same goes for the riots that took place in Marseille during the WC in 98, opposing notably the English hooligans and, again, the local muslim population. By contrast, I remember the Scottish and Irish fans to be the most jolly and fair play at Italia '90.
You were in belgium but not at charleroi... So what was the point in telling us that... You werent there... Case closed
Hey im not saying we havent been involved in terrible things, im saying you have to look at the whole not one or 2 events....
WC 98 and euro2000 do not make for the reactions from some people.
Charleroi was also a matter of shared responsibility...
As i said before cardiff fans were the main trouble makers in charleroi (have a look at a particurly good set of documentaries on hooliganism from bbc and ch4 last year to actually learn the background to what went on at the events you mention- there was a link on this forum to the episode about lazio and boca on this forum).
As well as soul crew members you also conveniently forget the germans whose goverment publicly took responsibility.
I agian am not saying we didnt do wrong... but be ****ing reasonable and look at the facts.
Though i am exceedingly pissed off by it.. I am actually happy you bought up the racism card... Please do not accuse our fans over the last ten years or so of racism... That is not something we as a nation are involved in.... We may do many other things but on the whole we sorted out the problem of racism in our country a long time ago.
Yes like anywhere there is the odd idiot but unlike many eastern european countries and even the likes of italy we do not have a problem with racism at football... We are the most culturally diverse country in europe and as such live togeather in the main very well.
Yes you occasionly get some prick starting something silly like that... but it is soon wiped out... perfect example being a couple of years ago... but not in football.
Howcome our national side has been racially abused at nearly everygame in the euro qualis... yet this is rarely reported.
I ask you... Have you ever walked onto the lazios curva as or with a person of an ethnic minority.... The behaviour there is the most disgusting thing i have ever witnessed at a football match
I dont know what happened where you were but im pretty sure it wasnt racially motivated... it was football motivated... thats not to say that racial comments werent made in the heat of battle... but that is not the same thing.
When are they gonna sort out the racial problem in italian grounds or eastern european grounds...??
As for italia 90... there was no problems there... I was at the italy - england 3rd place playoff... and that was a wonderful trouble free occasion.
The sad truth is that whenever a major tournament is held in continental Europe and England takes part in it, chances are very high that their hooligans will try and wreck it. Whereas the Italian, French or Spanish fan base in a Euro or a WC is mostly made up of students, groups of friends, families with their kids, the English and, to a lesser extent, the Germans, manage to bring a share of scummy characters with them.
Hooliganism may have been solved on English soil but some of your fans abroad are just impossible to control : the French, Belgian etc police are simply not trained to deal with them, and I don't think we can blame them for that. It's hard enough to know how to cope with domestic hooligans, with which they are confronted on a weekly basis, so there is no way they can be properly and effectively trained to counter hooligans from abroad during a one month event that takes place only once every four years, and never in the same country.
Firstly its not the truth.. there are only a couple of tournaments where there has been any real trouble.
Why shouldnt they know how to deal with crowd control... every police force around the world should be able to deal with a crowd etc... There is no excuse for not knowing... It purely a case of not bothering or not caring.
Around a year Before the wc 2002... The japanese police flew in experts from england to train their police and explain tactics , options etc so they were ready for any eventuality... its not so hard... If you dont know how to do it ,ask someone who does... Simple and obvious.
As domestic hooliganism is spreading in some other countries (Italy, Turkey, the Netherlands..), I am not sure whether the measures applied in England could apply there too (I don't see Italian fans learning to remain seated without a wall or a gate separating them from the field for instance - they would simply invade the pitch as soon as a dubious offside is signalled).
Of course they can, Our fans were very very similar to those in italy prior to the new enforcements... Its purely a matter of giving them no choice and gradually easing the changes in over a period of years not minutes.
There would not be a problem.
I doubt "international hooliganism" can be solved, unless we accept to reduce civil rights and freedom of movement by barring all potentially dangerous fans from leaving their country during a major tournament, and not just warn the authorities of the organizing country that a certain number of thugs are about to enter it. Again : once they are on the spot, very little can be done.
You do realise that this exact thing already happens in most european countries.
In england any known trouble maker has their passport removed around a month before any international tournament and not returned until it is long finnished... it has been like that for some 4 years now.
Other euro nations are supposed to adopt similar rules.
I think however that domestic hooliganism can be solved, if only the national federations want to be serious about it. It's about time they did, because the situation is quickly degenerating, and if we wait another Heysel to happen before taking action, we will become the partners in crime of the thugs.
Domestic hooliganism can definately be solved if the governing body of that particular country wants it.
And yes thes things must be acted against as soon as possible.
Unfortunately there will allways be the odd bit of trouble but we can make it the rareity rather than the norm.
Sorry for the badly written post but ive had to write this post 3 times due to connection probs
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