Excellent job by Milan. I wonder if the Spanish press will want to go on about how dire Italian football is now 
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Nick Against the World (60 Viewers)
- Thread starter IncuboRossonero
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hat wasnt wholly aimed at you.. there has been alot of moaning about american bashing in the not to distant past (some rightly ,some wrongly)
The typical comes your your writing not you as a person... Assumption... maybe but not completely
Of course it was caused by the movement... Thgough there was widespread com-laints about the venue before the match... What happened was foreseen by most in the weeks before.
What bugs me is that you forget about the part juve fans have in this.
Yes liverpool fans started the arguments etc.
There were 3 charges once it all kicked off...
Liverpool first.
The juve fans then charged back... causing structural damage to the wall behind the liverpool fans... official reports stated that if this charge had lasted but a few seconds more... the disaster would have been the other way round.
Then the third and final charge... By liverpool which collapsed the wall.
Anyway... it was a terrible day and we shouldnt really argue about it.
And for the record, I have been a juve fan since i was 3 years old and liverpool are about the only team in the world i truely despise.
The typical comes your your writing not you as a person... Assumption... maybe but not completely
Of course it was caused by the movement... Thgough there was widespread com-laints about the venue before the match... What happened was foreseen by most in the weeks before.
What bugs me is that you forget about the part juve fans have in this.
Yes liverpool fans started the arguments etc.
There were 3 charges once it all kicked off...
Liverpool first.
The juve fans then charged back... causing structural damage to the wall behind the liverpool fans... official reports stated that if this charge had lasted but a few seconds more... the disaster would have been the other way round.
Then the third and final charge... By liverpool which collapsed the wall.
Anyway... it was a terrible day and we shouldnt really argue about it.
And for the record, I have been a juve fan since i was 3 years old and liverpool are about the only team in the world i truely despise.
I wasn't at Heysel but have a friend of my father who attended the game and, well, I'd like to ask him what happened there, but the poor man is mentally disturbed and barely remembers his name since that fateful day, let alone the events that took place. I have seen documentaries on that tragedy though and, although that infamous Z stand at Heysel played a crucial role in the massacre, it emerges that the scouce hooligans had already laid their cards on the table in the hours preceding the game, starting brawls in Brussels' pubs and harassing the locals. At the end of the day, 39 people died, all of them Italian, and nothing will bring them back.
I was however in Belgium during Euro 2000, and although I missed the events in Charleroi, I saw first hand English hooligans start fights with Brussels' arab minority in the historical centre, causing the police to shut down the whole area. These events, although rather scary, were barely reported, so I imagine what a living hell Charleroi must have been (and even if the thugs were welsh, it did happen in the context of England playing in a tournament abroad). I guess the same goes for the riots that took place in Marseille during the WC in 98, opposing notably the English hooligans and, again, the local muslim population. By contrast, I remember the Scottish and Irish fans to be the most jolly and fair play at Italia '90.
The sad truth is that whenever a major tournament is held in continental Europe and England takes part in it, chances are very high that their hooligans will try and wreck it. Whereas the Italian, French or Spanish fan base in a Euro or a WC is mostly made up of students, groups of friends, families with their kids, the English and, to a lesser extent, the Germans, manage to bring a share of scummy characters with them.
Hooliganism may have been solved on English soil but some of your fans abroad are just impossible to control : the French, Belgian etc police are simply not trained to deal with them, and I don't think we can blame them for that. It's hard enough to know how to cope with domestic hooligans, with which they are confronted on a weekly basis, so there is no way they can be properly and effectively trained to counter hooligans from abroad during a one month event that takes place only once every four years, and never in the same country.
As domestic hooliganism is spreading in some other countries (Italy, Turkey, the Netherlands..), I am not sure whether the measures applied in England could apply there too (I don't see Italian fans learning to remain seated without a wall or a gate separating them from the field for instance - they would simply invade the pitch as soon as a dubious offside is signalled). I doubt "international hooliganism" can be solved, unless we accept to reduce civil rights and freedom of movement by barring all potentially dangerous fans from leaving their country during a major tournament, and not just warn the authorities of the organizing country that a certain number of thugs are about to enter it. Again : once they are on the spot, very little can be done.
I think however that domestic hooliganism can be solved, if only the national federations want to be serious about it. It's about time they did, because the situation is quickly degenerating, and if we wait another Heysel to happen before taking action, we will become the partners in crime of the thugs.
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Paul
I see where your disagreement and anger when discussing this topic comes from. It reminds me of my discussions regarding Berlusconi to those who only have opinions based on media reports without actually finding out WHAT goes on. The usual comments " he is corrupt" "he is a mobster" come out which angers me to no end because of people's lack of information and opinions. HOWEVER, much like Berlusconi and SCANDAL English football and hooligans go hand in hand. There is a reason these labels are attached albeit not always indicative of the WHOLE STORY.
English law enforcement is a shining example of HOW to deal with hooliganism HOWever events usually dictate law. There is a reason for the terrorism act..there is a reason for the RICO act in the U.S. and there is a reason the English have instilled a system in place for hooligans. The problem reached frightening heights at some points...I agree the problem was more outward than inward however there is no denying that it existed and in my opinion on a grander scale than Italy. Italian hooligans seem to have this US vs. the Police mentality before all else.
More over I think they (Italians) have been influenced by English hooligans from the "NEVER WALK ALONE" theme to the typical bomber and scarf garb.
I don't know what happened in Belgium except from reports, etc. I do remember one particular distrubing picture of a Juve thug running through the crowd with a pistol in his hand ... unfortunately Juventini getting the raw end in terms of deaths the focus and blame was on the English which already had a rep. and appetite for destruction.
Again my opinion here is not as informative as I would want it to be. All to say I understand where you are coming from...but there is a reason that these labels and reputation is attached.
I see where your disagreement and anger when discussing this topic comes from. It reminds me of my discussions regarding Berlusconi to those who only have opinions based on media reports without actually finding out WHAT goes on. The usual comments " he is corrupt" "he is a mobster" come out which angers me to no end because of people's lack of information and opinions. HOWEVER, much like Berlusconi and SCANDAL English football and hooligans go hand in hand. There is a reason these labels are attached albeit not always indicative of the WHOLE STORY.
English law enforcement is a shining example of HOW to deal with hooliganism HOWever events usually dictate law. There is a reason for the terrorism act..there is a reason for the RICO act in the U.S. and there is a reason the English have instilled a system in place for hooligans. The problem reached frightening heights at some points...I agree the problem was more outward than inward however there is no denying that it existed and in my opinion on a grander scale than Italy. Italian hooligans seem to have this US vs. the Police mentality before all else.
More over I think they (Italians) have been influenced by English hooligans from the "NEVER WALK ALONE" theme to the typical bomber and scarf garb.
I don't know what happened in Belgium except from reports, etc. I do remember one particular distrubing picture of a Juve thug running through the crowd with a pistol in his hand ... unfortunately Juventini getting the raw end in terms of deaths the focus and blame was on the English which already had a rep. and appetite for destruction.
Again my opinion here is not as informative as I would want it to be. All to say I understand where you are coming from...but there is a reason that these labels and reputation is attached.
Well said Paul
And i agree with what Paul is saying about the anti-english opinions that people take. Much of it isnt true at all.
So why havent the Italians installed a system already? I hate to break it to you but the mess of italian football security is as bad as anything that has been seen in england.
And i agree with what Paul is saying about the anti-english opinions that people take. Much of it isnt true at all.
So why havent the Italians installed a system already? I hate to break it to you but the mess of italian football security is as bad as anything that has been seen in england.