Nick Against the World (70 Viewers)

Mac · Mar 23, 2004

Its just a complete lack of control. These games shouldnt be played until they can handle this. Jesus its only a couple of games a week and then the cops can go back to giving out parking tickets, everyone who was in these pictures should be traced and banned for life, thats what they do in england and it works. You would never see any of this crap in an English game, and like Paul said the atmosphere is supposidly better.

Italians take football to seriously. I mean its slighty rediculous to me to be part of a good dam 'football team mob/group'. Jesus get something better to do with your time.

Even in Northern Ireland we dont get this, and fans just go to the matches to fight

, lack of police control is the problem in italy.

The Pado · Mar 23, 2004

I love Tim Horton's (Toronto and Rochester). Great coffee, but exactly the same as Dunkin' Donuts imo (and half the price when you buy by the pound).

The Pado · Mar 23, 2004

Mac, don't even make this argument. Today, things are better in England, but all hell might break loose tomorrow. How many thousands of fans have died on the terraces at the hands of English hooligans? How many murdered across Europe by travelling English fans? It took too many body bags for the British government to finally put a stop to it. However, I'm not convinced that the stop we enjoy now is permanent. I certainly hope I am wrong.

IncuboRossonero · Mar 23, 2004

Yes and No Mac. when Italians fight it on the average consists of bottle throwing and other small objects just to be a "pain in the arse". THings like Sunday night is not the norm. In England the norm for football fights is knife fights and stick fights. It is really apple and oranges. I have seen hooligans in action .. it is a WHOLE DIFFERENT BALLGAME. Like street fights versus fighting in the trenches. You are right it is better organized in England however it was much more pressing in England. In England a scene like Sunday would have left people dead...no one died on Sunday. Therein lies the difference. Yes, something must be done. England has a good system in place. However, England was dealing with madmen and Italy is still (for the time being) only dealing with "trouble makers".

IncuboRossonero · Mar 23, 2004

On the issue:
Back in the Supercoppa final in New York last August my Father was sitting in the press box (he is not a journalist but WAS and some old friends from Italy invited him to watch from the press box). The journalists were AMAZED at seeing Juve and Milan jerseys side by side with NOT one incident...Milan flags next to Juve flags...they were simply amazed.
One journalist arrogantly claimed "They probably don't even watch football." My dad explained that many actually do and the games are televised week after week including Champions League games. Then the same journalist said "well you can see there is no passion....usually the arguements in Italy comes from passion. These fans care little in terms of passion." Another journalist (Italian as well) said "Take a look at the scenes outside stadiums and the fact that you can't wear an opposing team jersey in some areas of a city without getting harrased. Your telling me that you prefer that scene over this one...fans side by side watching the match?"
That stuck to me Sunday ... is this really passion or just a reason to "break things" and be nuts?
At the same time Paul had a point ..games (soccer/football) in North America are very hard to watch when you have seen one in Italy/Europe...

IncuboRossonero · Mar 23, 2004

More pics...more fires in the stands...

IncuboRossonero · Mar 23, 2004

Too little too late..by this time a few thugs already spoke to Totti...

IncuboRossonero · Mar 23, 2004

By far the worse scene of the match..I did not see this but was told that people had fallen down the aisles or were beginning to be trapped in the bottlenecks formed by the crowds pushing into one exit. She was injured (not sure how)

Mac · Mar 23, 2004

Pad and Nick. Yes true in the past there has been alot of problems like this with English football, im not talking about the past, they have learnt from their mistakes and now there isnt any trouble. Whens the last time there has been anything near this scale in a game in england? English teams in europe is a different ball game however but thats not the point i was making, my point is english police and security have full control.

And Nick the pictures you are posting to me show a hell of alot more than just trouble makers. People starting fires in a football stadium for instance.

Slagathor · Mar 23, 2004

Nick, I'd like to ask you something. Figured if anyone here, you should know.

In Holland, we have an organised group of criminals (these are not fans of any football club) who travel to matches with the sole purpose to create havoc. They also go to peaceful political demonstrations to create riots and they indulge in such activities whenever there is a large group of people gathering.

Is anything of the sort going on in Italy as well?

PS. These criminals are being registered and banned or jailed in NL but it's not helping a great deal - these are very big organisations who keep finding new members, usually among the derailed youth.

Respaul · Mar 23, 2004

Ok... This may be a little disjointed as im replying to both of you.

You say how many people have died at the hands of english hooligans...

In england very few
In Europe... not alot ...check your facts.

The worst things involving english fans over the years have been...

Ireland - england.... This was political and actually a celtic thing, this wasnt about english hooligans at all.

Heysal... If you actually watch the footage and speak to people that were there... This was as much juve's fault as it was liverpools... and the tragedy happened due to the inadequate stadium

Charleroi... Actually started by cardif soul crew members.... they are not english

We as a nation have a problem in the fact if someone gives us any crap we will bring it back ten fold... its always been the same and that is why we have had trouble in europe etc

As for at home... Our record is not particurly bad...
Many of the problems in english football was actually started by the most feared group in europe at the time.... Again not english... the rangers icf... who spread suffering where ever they went... led by there hatred for the english they started attending games in england and creating havoc.
Look it up.

In england you had chelsea headhunters and west ham and millwall fans who had a bad reputation... but generally jus met up to beat the shit out of each other and never harmed anyone else.

I hear alot of talking on this subject... but how many of you actually attended games in england at those times??

I remember in the eighties when hooliganism was at its peak...
I was a regular at stamford bridge from the day i was born till i was 15/16...
I remember getting dressed at my grandparents to go to the game...
I remember every match, however old i was... my grandfather coming in to the room and kneeling in front of me, to tie my laces(even when i was 16)...
As he did my laces he would tell me to be careful and if i saw trouble to jus leave the ground... as he finnished his sermon, he would say , but jus in case... only if really needed.. and slip an eastend cut throat into my boot

Standing in the terrace... I saw the odd fight etc, but not once did i have to leave the ground or even the slightest need to contemplate reaching to my boot.

I have seen far worse things in italy (which to be fair has been one of the worst places for crowd trouble over the last 10 years) or the even worse occurences in the 2 games i saw whilst in argentina.

The english may have a bad reputation when abroad and too a certain extent rightly so... But there have never been the problems people like to make out when on home soil.

The point i was making earlier and i think also mac was making was that the english police know how to deal with these matters...
Even with our reputation we have the best record for crowd control in europe over the last 10 years within our own stadiums.

Why ... because our police know how to organise a game... Italy should take note and learn something.

Where were the most problem free major tournaments since the war??
Fact: both in England... wc66 and euro 96

The Pado · Mar 23, 2004

Nice story, but the fact is that Hillsborough saw the death of nearly 100 people, and that was only one incident.

Regarding Heysel, if the Italians were equally to blame then I shall kill myself this minute. If the Italians were equally to blame then why did only English clubs get a five-year ban from playing in Europe? If the Italians were equally to blame then why did only English thugs break through the barricades in the parking lot for the purpose of kicking the dead bodies? My point is not to bash England or the English people. There was a serious problem in the 80's and 90's, as English fans were recognized as the worst hooligans on earth. You cannot deny that with justifications and stories. Maybe the English reputation was unfair, but it was universally held. Things have improved, but hundreds of people are dead, mostly at the hands of Liverpool supporters, no matter what their national origin.

Respaul · Mar 23, 2004

Firstly hillsborough a different thing that i am not going to talk about

Secondly.. you maybe should go kill yourself.. cause you clearly know **** all about what happened at heysal... Speak to people that were there.
Its amazing how both juve and liverpool fans that were actually at the game openly accept there share of the blame and also place most blame at the foot of the venue , yet those that like to tag onto the anti english crap and media bullshit come out with this shit.
I spose your gonna tell me that 2 minutes before the final liverpool charge that collapsed the wall, juve fans didnt charge the liverpool enclosure causing structural damage to the wall behind them???
Why were english clubs banned and juve not... Firstly... Thatcher stood up on the day of the match and accepted blame and asked for us to be banned... She also said uefa shouldnt ban italian fans (which they were considering) because they had lost enough allready.... Fact!!!

Your jus another typical guy that beleives what you see in the media and tags onto reputations withiout actually knowing the facts or having any personal experience of what your talking about.

You crack me up... you along with others whinge to high heaven about supposed american bashing on this forum, but then are more than happy to talk shit about another nation without knowing the facts.

Respaul · Mar 23, 2004

Impressive win tonight nick...

gray · Mar 23, 2004

What i find interesting is that bobbies are the only police force in the world who don't carry guns. I know that police aren't gonna use these in football crowds anyway, but they must be pretty highly trained in crowd control

IncuboRossonero · Mar 23, 2004

HEY FOK YOU BOTH...

I bet you both smiled when Depor scored the first goal at San Siro

A gift for you both and keep in mind: 4.5 Million dollar transfer FEE :howler:

Respaul · Mar 23, 2004

I really wish i had smiled nick, but however much i hate to admit it... I wanted milan to win and i was impressed by their play

Dragon · Mar 23, 2004

Inzaghi tonight wasnt offside two times and they took those goals away from him. If not, I'd have been 6-1. Depor de mierda!!

Hydde · Mar 23, 2004

Mmm i was not smiling... i wanted them to win..

but for personal purposes.

Hope they will be halted in the final

The Pado · Mar 23, 2004

If there has been American bashing on this forum, I do not remember it. I also doubt that I, what is your word - whinged - about it. Assuming that "whinging" is negative, I don't have any problems with people bashing countries if they have a problem.

Also, you calling me a "typical" anything and assuming much about my character is surprising, as I do not remember ever having met you. I think we have only communicated one time prior to this present exchange, so you do assume a lot.

The Liverpool fans responsible for the Heysel tragedy did not attack the hardcore Juventini, though they were in the stadium. They attacked the elderly men and women who were immigrants living in Belgium who had purchased their tickets locally, and not through Juventus F.C. Therefore, those Italians were seated amongst the travelling Liverpool supporters, and this is where the problem originated. Yes, a section of the stadium collapsed. Are you saying that happened through no fault of the rushing tide of humanity? Because I am pretty sure that that the stampede contributed to the collapse.

Nick Against the World (70 Viewers)

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