Respaul said:
Right, I’m going to wrap up a few bits in one post as frankly, I’m knackered and don’t have much time today (got off a plane a couple of hours or so ago and on another one in 9 hours time)
Firstly, Robert... Please don’t miss-quote me... I never said that, I was purely referring to the generalisation... You also miss quote my point, which has always been the same...
That being that I do not accept or think necessary the continuous bigoted, nationalistic and jus plain down right racist comments that frequent this board... Whether it is straight out racist remarks, nationalistic generalisations or the flippant homophobic jokes... Is that really asking too much in a civilized forum... and no I won’t apologise for expecting and wanting a forum that is free of said bullshit
Also interesting that the same people laughing at these little generalisations are the same who supported Nick when he rightly pulled people up for generalisations regarding Italians... It’s the same thing and either one has no place in a civilized world...
Media...
My personal bugbear on this forum... the utter tripe that passes the mouths of people here regarding the media... Correct me if I’m wrong but not one of you have ever worked in a press office or an international media centre and as such what ever you think you know, the reality is you have absolutely no idea how the recognised media works or where these stories come from...
What makes it even worse is that 9 times out of ten these people slagging off the media, then offer up another article from a different media outlet to show their point... utterly laughable...
There also is no distinguishable difference acknowledged here between recognised (and monitored) media outlets and websites written by kids (e.g . . . the tripe that is goal.com) who can write (and make up) whatever they please without fear of reproach... Why is that 99.9% of the time when people say something published about them isn’t true... They never even contemplate suing... Think about it..
As for Juve being picked on... that’s crap... They might get slightly more attention as they bring it on themselves... But they are not picked on... whilst there are members of the press sifting through everything juve do, the facts are, the same is being done to all the major clubs... especially in Italy... The difference is juve present them with constant stories... the likes of Milan do not...
Moggi Transcripts...
Firstly, I hear people talking about the media and how they have "created" this story... These transcripts come from court documents that were for the first time made public a matter of weeks ago...
People then go onto say how it’s all bullshit etc... But tell me... How many of you have actually read the transcripts? Not the edited crap on the likes of goal.com... the full transcripts?
These transcripts run to well over 100 pages not the 3/4 page you get from goal.com...
How can you comment on something you haven’t read... How can you comment on something badly translated into English... The same segments when shown in there entirety and in the correct language show a somewhat different story....
I’m not saying people are right or wrong (I haven’t read that much of it myself - so am not in a position to-do so), I jus cant see how people can be so definite of our innocence or guilt without actually knowing what has / has not been said or the context of said conversations...
It makes no sense to me to shout out insults and guilty / not guilty pap without actually knowing what was said in full...
The Accusation's
I hear people saying... But they were only friendlies... Where's the difference, These are sanctioned pre-season friendlie's that are governed by the same FIGC rules as a league match.
Friendly or not... The crime is the same... Plus of course there is the matter of a CL qualification match...
The Elkanns...
Laughable comments about the elkanns... Most not even being able to tell the difference (or even know there is 2 of them) between John and lapo.
Many people commenting on Johns words as though they were from the idiot lapo... While lapo may well be an idiot... John is not... He is a strong and wise man that knows what he’s on about and knows about how this club is and should be run... He is no ones fool... Please acknowledge the difference between the 2...
The triad...
Should they stay - should they go?
Who knows... we don’t know the truth... if they did what is said then in my mind there is no question... If they didn’t, then it comes down to the moral line and the continual bad press they bring upon us... That is purely open to personal opinion...
My view... I would ditch them today... We need to make this club transparent; we need to leave no question open to debate... This has been going on far too long... The current generation of football fans already see's our club as cheats... without transparency now... We will wear that badge for ever... we will have lost every ounce of credibility we have left...
Now people say... Juve are finished without the triad... Juve need the triad... Why?
Bettega... A great man, a true lover of the club, the only one of the three that must remain... But what does he actually do?
The simple, straight and accurate answer is... Absolutely fuck all... He is a figurehead, A past legend the fans can relate to and the world can recognise... No more... He has little if any impact on how the club is run or the way the team is formed / managed...
Luciano Moggi... The key man in bringing controversy upon us at every turn... A man whose morals are lower than magma... A man who has courted controversy and accusations throughout his career... all the way from Napoli to present day he has towed these things along with him... Whether it be drugs, fraud... you name it he has been involved in it...
What exactly does he do... again an overrated role... He controls the clubs purchases and liaisons with other clubs, the figc etc... Plus of course the accused issues of fraud, doping, straight out cheating and any other questionable activity that springs to mind... There are many that could fill his role...
How exactly he got this transfer guru tag... i would love to know... I haven’t seen it... allot of questionable buys... most of the good buys were large amounts for recognised players, sorry anyone could do that when the money allows... Of course i acknowledge he has made some top purchases... But who that has been in the game as long as him... hasn’t?
Giraudo... I see people here say he is worthless he doesn’t do much... but even with a little research you can see that the man has done more for this club that the aforementioned 2 together and in triplicate... He is the real loss here... A man that has garnered deals for amazing sums, a man who has made this club one of the most financially stable clubs in the world... A man who without funds or options has dug out deals, slim lined our organisation and made us what we are today and put us in a great place for the future to come... Jus look at recent deals that with a public downturn managed to increase our sponsorship deals at every post, an amazing last minute deal that saved the club 100's of millions in the cost of our new stadium,, allowing us not only to have an unexpected transfer budget this summer but also to have a budget without even having to touch the sponsorship money he got for us... One of if not the best club director in world football... You says he’s worthless... Look at the figures since his arrival... look at what he’s done, look at the position of stability he has placed us in... The true unsung hero of the triad... Yeah ok he annoys the fans on occasion, yeah he’s toro to the core... so what he does a great job...
Although in my view the biggest loss of the three, Giraudo is still replaceable and if we want our club to be clean and transparent, then he too must go...
And in my View John Elkann can control this club equally well... Stick some good club directors along side john and he will lead this club to a bright and successful (hopefully) future.
Tradition...
I here people say getting rid of the triad is going against the traditions and values of the club... How?
Since Gianni's death the triad have strayed further and further away from the agnelli view of this club, throwing tradition aside at every turn...
Keeping the tradition of this club intact is bringing the man Gianni wanted to take over his legacy control... Yes he wanted John Elkann to succeed him...
Keeping tradition is clearing out the triad...
Keeping tradition is bringing the name agnelli back to Juventus... Bringing Andrea Agnelli and John Elkann to the board...
Agnelli Money...
I here people bitching that the family never helped anyway.. "where was the money" etc...
Firstly, they made this club, they took it when it was suffering and made it great... They didn’t give money... well its not entirely true as they put in a fair amount of funds to initially build the club to its rightful place... But then they did much more than gave us money.. They, recognising the future of football, they made us into a self sufficient business... They made us what we are today and set the platform for the likes of giraudo to make us completely stable and keeping us at the top of the game to boot...
If they had given us unending funds as some here seem to think they should have... We wouldn’t be the club we are today... We would be Morattis inter or the financially fucked roma... I know which i prefer...
Berlusconi bashing....
We know the man isn’t a straight arrow... But those that spring these accusations constantly seem to forget that without the decidedly dodgy deals between himself and the agnelli family... Fiat would have been fucked years ago and our club probably wouldn’t exist or would be languishing in obscurity.. the likes of pro-vercelli et al... So if your bashing his questionable dealings... then your questioning us as well...
Anyway... There is more but probably bored you hours ago... so onto something lighter...
The Zlatanists....
Oh dear... Suddenly i read here, how great he is etc... After he scored 1 goal... his 7th of the season... Purleeezzz...
No mention of how poor his play was up to (and after) that point... The poor passing , the lost balls, the glaring misses... But no it doesn’t matter he played like shit cause he scored a goal... No thank you...
Now on a quick glance here yesterday, I thought maybe I was mistaken as to what I saw, having at that point only seen the match from the stadium and not on TV... maybe I saw something different, maybe I missed something.... Then watching the TV last night I noticed that nigh on every sport show I crossed agreed with me... reading the papers this morning... out of 5 papers only 1 giving him a reasonable mark... Looking at the individual stats for yesterdays match and looking at the sheer number of missed passes and lost balls... All these things Show its not jus some internal bias stopping me from giving the man credit... So I have to ask... What were these people watching? Does what they actually see, have any relation to what they post?
I then see... Comments like "Zlatan - thanks for the scudetto"... Well for one, we haven’t actually won it yet... For two... how does the statement hold true anyway... Did he score a last minute winner or the like?
From what i saw... Zlatans goal (well taken to be fair) was at a point when we were comfortable at 1-0.. We were although open to some pressure in control... They weren’t going to score in my view... Zlatan scored, Cap made us sit on the 2-0 and we were flooded with pressure... Zlatan didn’t win us the match and if anything his goal actually made life more difficult what with caps inane tactics... jmo
As for his gestures to the fans… Grow the fuck up…
A quick comment on some of the stuff about Macs appointment as England coach...
How is he not qualified? He was a key figure behind a treble winning side... he has been the England number 2 and knows the job inside out for the last 5 years... He has taken an average club this year to the fa cup semis and the uefa cup final... he has shown his flexibility when playing different styles of teams and his raw ability to turn a game ,whatever the odds against him...
People talk of the British alternatives... Big Sam... what the hell has he ever done... in reality he has underperformed with Bolton for years, he has no knowledge of international football or European football... He was embarrassed with his lack of ideas in this year’s uefa cup, neither being able to adapt his tactics to different sides (one of the key elements of int football) nor having any ideas when it went wrong... Yes he’s a good man manager and a good motivator.. he jus isn’t a good football manager...
Curbs... A journey man with 15 years of nothing in one club...ooohhh
O’Neil... Firstly he has shown no interest in a return to football... but what has he done... he did a good job with a tiny club up north... then he lead Celtic to a couple of titles... no offence but i see nothing great in leading Celtic to the spl title... He constantly came up short in Europe.. a couple of worthless highpoints, but generally showed little of the adaptability or tactical nous required at international level...
The foreign options... who are they?
Scolari, a man who admits he does not follow engliush football or does he speak the language... game over on him right there...
Capello... A man who consistently throughout his career has fell short at knock out competition... say no more...
Hiddink... Top choice, great manger, great record, knows our football, speaks the language.. Apparently involved in negotiations with the Russians prior to this process being started.. Bad luck we missed the boat...
Only other foreign managers to consider who fit the bill are Jose or wenger...
Jose has said he would like the job one day, but not till he has finished with Chelsea...
Wenger (possibly the best candidate for us) Has more to-do at arsenal.. Took himself out of the race at the first minute...
So there you are... the best, most suitable guy for the job got it... He might not be everyone’s cup of tea... But he’s a good manager with the right experience and the best of a weak bunch of available options...
Firstly, Robert... Please don’t miss-quote me... I never said that, I was purely referring to the generalisation... You also miss quote my point, which has always been the same...
That being that I do not accept or think necessary the continuous bigoted, nationalistic and jus plain down right racist comments that frequent this board... Whether it is straight out racist remarks, nationalistic generalisations or the flippant homophobic jokes... Is that really asking too much in a civilized forum... and no I won’t apologise for expecting and wanting a forum that is free of said bullshit
Also interesting that the same people laughing at these little generalisations are the same who supported Nick when he rightly pulled people up for generalisations regarding Italians... It’s the same thing and either one has no place in a civilized world...
Media...
My personal bugbear on this forum... the utter tripe that passes the mouths of people here regarding the media... Correct me if I’m wrong but not one of you have ever worked in a press office or an international media centre and as such what ever you think you know, the reality is you have absolutely no idea how the recognised media works or where these stories come from...
What makes it even worse is that 9 times out of ten these people slagging off the media, then offer up another article from a different media outlet to show their point... utterly laughable...
There also is no distinguishable difference acknowledged here between recognised (and monitored) media outlets and websites written by kids (e.g . . . the tripe that is goal.com) who can write (and make up) whatever they please without fear of reproach... Why is that 99.9% of the time when people say something published about them isn’t true... They never even contemplate suing... Think about it..
As for Juve being picked on... that’s crap... They might get slightly more attention as they bring it on themselves... But they are not picked on... whilst there are members of the press sifting through everything juve do, the facts are, the same is being done to all the major clubs... especially in Italy... The difference is juve present them with constant stories... the likes of Milan do not...
Moggi Transcripts...
Firstly, I hear people talking about the media and how they have "created" this story... These transcripts come from court documents that were for the first time made public a matter of weeks ago...
People then go onto say how it’s all bullshit etc... But tell me... How many of you have actually read the transcripts? Not the edited crap on the likes of goal.com... the full transcripts?
These transcripts run to well over 100 pages not the 3/4 page you get from goal.com...
How can you comment on something you haven’t read... How can you comment on something badly translated into English... The same segments when shown in there entirety and in the correct language show a somewhat different story....
I’m not saying people are right or wrong (I haven’t read that much of it myself - so am not in a position to-do so), I jus cant see how people can be so definite of our innocence or guilt without actually knowing what has / has not been said or the context of said conversations...
It makes no sense to me to shout out insults and guilty / not guilty pap without actually knowing what was said in full...
The Accusation's
I hear people saying... But they were only friendlies... Where's the difference, These are sanctioned pre-season friendlie's that are governed by the same FIGC rules as a league match.
Friendly or not... The crime is the same... Plus of course there is the matter of a CL qualification match...
The Elkanns...
Laughable comments about the elkanns... Most not even being able to tell the difference (or even know there is 2 of them) between John and lapo.
Many people commenting on Johns words as though they were from the idiot lapo... While lapo may well be an idiot... John is not... He is a strong and wise man that knows what he’s on about and knows about how this club is and should be run... He is no ones fool... Please acknowledge the difference between the 2...
The triad...
Should they stay - should they go?
Who knows... we don’t know the truth... if they did what is said then in my mind there is no question... If they didn’t, then it comes down to the moral line and the continual bad press they bring upon us... That is purely open to personal opinion...
My view... I would ditch them today... We need to make this club transparent; we need to leave no question open to debate... This has been going on far too long... The current generation of football fans already see's our club as cheats... without transparency now... We will wear that badge for ever... we will have lost every ounce of credibility we have left...
Now people say... Juve are finished without the triad... Juve need the triad... Why?
Bettega... A great man, a true lover of the club, the only one of the three that must remain... But what does he actually do?
The simple, straight and accurate answer is... Absolutely fuck all... He is a figurehead, A past legend the fans can relate to and the world can recognise... No more... He has little if any impact on how the club is run or the way the team is formed / managed...
Luciano Moggi... The key man in bringing controversy upon us at every turn... A man whose morals are lower than magma... A man who has courted controversy and accusations throughout his career... all the way from Napoli to present day he has towed these things along with him... Whether it be drugs, fraud... you name it he has been involved in it...
What exactly does he do... again an overrated role... He controls the clubs purchases and liaisons with other clubs, the figc etc... Plus of course the accused issues of fraud, doping, straight out cheating and any other questionable activity that springs to mind... There are many that could fill his role...
How exactly he got this transfer guru tag... i would love to know... I haven’t seen it... allot of questionable buys... most of the good buys were large amounts for recognised players, sorry anyone could do that when the money allows... Of course i acknowledge he has made some top purchases... But who that has been in the game as long as him... hasn’t?
Giraudo... I see people here say he is worthless he doesn’t do much... but even with a little research you can see that the man has done more for this club that the aforementioned 2 together and in triplicate... He is the real loss here... A man that has garnered deals for amazing sums, a man who has made this club one of the most financially stable clubs in the world... A man who without funds or options has dug out deals, slim lined our organisation and made us what we are today and put us in a great place for the future to come... Jus look at recent deals that with a public downturn managed to increase our sponsorship deals at every post, an amazing last minute deal that saved the club 100's of millions in the cost of our new stadium,, allowing us not only to have an unexpected transfer budget this summer but also to have a budget without even having to touch the sponsorship money he got for us... One of if not the best club director in world football... You says he’s worthless... Look at the figures since his arrival... look at what he’s done, look at the position of stability he has placed us in... The true unsung hero of the triad... Yeah ok he annoys the fans on occasion, yeah he’s toro to the core... so what he does a great job...
Although in my view the biggest loss of the three, Giraudo is still replaceable and if we want our club to be clean and transparent, then he too must go...
And in my View John Elkann can control this club equally well... Stick some good club directors along side john and he will lead this club to a bright and successful (hopefully) future.
Tradition...
I here people say getting rid of the triad is going against the traditions and values of the club... How?
Since Gianni's death the triad have strayed further and further away from the agnelli view of this club, throwing tradition aside at every turn...
Keeping the tradition of this club intact is bringing the man Gianni wanted to take over his legacy control... Yes he wanted John Elkann to succeed him...
Keeping tradition is clearing out the triad...
Keeping tradition is bringing the name agnelli back to Juventus... Bringing Andrea Agnelli and John Elkann to the board...
Agnelli Money...
I here people bitching that the family never helped anyway.. "where was the money" etc...
Firstly, they made this club, they took it when it was suffering and made it great... They didn’t give money... well its not entirely true as they put in a fair amount of funds to initially build the club to its rightful place... But then they did much more than gave us money.. They, recognising the future of football, they made us into a self sufficient business... They made us what we are today and set the platform for the likes of giraudo to make us completely stable and keeping us at the top of the game to boot...
If they had given us unending funds as some here seem to think they should have... We wouldn’t be the club we are today... We would be Morattis inter or the financially fucked roma... I know which i prefer...
Berlusconi bashing....
We know the man isn’t a straight arrow... But those that spring these accusations constantly seem to forget that without the decidedly dodgy deals between himself and the agnelli family... Fiat would have been fucked years ago and our club probably wouldn’t exist or would be languishing in obscurity.. the likes of pro-vercelli et al... So if your bashing his questionable dealings... then your questioning us as well...
Anyway... There is more but probably bored you hours ago... so onto something lighter...
The Zlatanists....
Oh dear... Suddenly i read here, how great he is etc... After he scored 1 goal... his 7th of the season... Purleeezzz...
No mention of how poor his play was up to (and after) that point... The poor passing , the lost balls, the glaring misses... But no it doesn’t matter he played like shit cause he scored a goal... No thank you...
Now on a quick glance here yesterday, I thought maybe I was mistaken as to what I saw, having at that point only seen the match from the stadium and not on TV... maybe I saw something different, maybe I missed something.... Then watching the TV last night I noticed that nigh on every sport show I crossed agreed with me... reading the papers this morning... out of 5 papers only 1 giving him a reasonable mark... Looking at the individual stats for yesterdays match and looking at the sheer number of missed passes and lost balls... All these things Show its not jus some internal bias stopping me from giving the man credit... So I have to ask... What were these people watching? Does what they actually see, have any relation to what they post?
I then see... Comments like "Zlatan - thanks for the scudetto"... Well for one, we haven’t actually won it yet... For two... how does the statement hold true anyway... Did he score a last minute winner or the like?
From what i saw... Zlatans goal (well taken to be fair) was at a point when we were comfortable at 1-0.. We were although open to some pressure in control... They weren’t going to score in my view... Zlatan scored, Cap made us sit on the 2-0 and we were flooded with pressure... Zlatan didn’t win us the match and if anything his goal actually made life more difficult what with caps inane tactics... jmo
As for his gestures to the fans… Grow the fuck up…
A quick comment on some of the stuff about Macs appointment as England coach...
How is he not qualified? He was a key figure behind a treble winning side... he has been the England number 2 and knows the job inside out for the last 5 years... He has taken an average club this year to the fa cup semis and the uefa cup final... he has shown his flexibility when playing different styles of teams and his raw ability to turn a game ,whatever the odds against him...
People talk of the British alternatives... Big Sam... what the hell has he ever done... in reality he has underperformed with Bolton for years, he has no knowledge of international football or European football... He was embarrassed with his lack of ideas in this year’s uefa cup, neither being able to adapt his tactics to different sides (one of the key elements of int football) nor having any ideas when it went wrong... Yes he’s a good man manager and a good motivator.. he jus isn’t a good football manager...
Curbs... A journey man with 15 years of nothing in one club...ooohhh
O’Neil... Firstly he has shown no interest in a return to football... but what has he done... he did a good job with a tiny club up north... then he lead Celtic to a couple of titles... no offence but i see nothing great in leading Celtic to the spl title... He constantly came up short in Europe.. a couple of worthless highpoints, but generally showed little of the adaptability or tactical nous required at international level...
The foreign options... who are they?
Scolari, a man who admits he does not follow engliush football or does he speak the language... game over on him right there...
Capello... A man who consistently throughout his career has fell short at knock out competition... say no more...
Hiddink... Top choice, great manger, great record, knows our football, speaks the language.. Apparently involved in negotiations with the Russians prior to this process being started.. Bad luck we missed the boat...
Only other foreign managers to consider who fit the bill are Jose or wenger...
Jose has said he would like the job one day, but not till he has finished with Chelsea...
Wenger (possibly the best candidate for us) Has more to-do at arsenal.. Took himself out of the race at the first minute...
So there you are... the best, most suitable guy for the job got it... He might not be everyone’s cup of tea... But he’s a good manager with the right experience and the best of a weak bunch of available options...
Damn Paul. I whole heartedly agree, especially with your comments on the media, but seriously couldn't you have told everyone to jog on?
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