News that makes you say WTF! (39 Viewers)

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,326
No, its not simplistic. Going to war or not is a difficult decision, always. What's simplistic is the retarded pacifists' logic "war is bad, we want peace" or the leftists' "we invaded Iraq and now we have ISIS, therefore the war in Iraq was a failure."
It wasn't a difficult decision. It was made difficult by forging evidence andere blatant lies.

Fwiw I disagree, the situation is worse than it was before the war and I have met several Iraqis who told me as much.

But even if it would be somewhat compareable, war is a last resort and needs to be justified. It wasn't. It was an awful decision.
 

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Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,545
No, its not simplistic. Going to war or not is a difficult decision, always. What's simplistic is the retarded pacifists' logic "war is bad, we want peace" or the leftists' "we invaded Iraq and now we have ISIS, therefore the war in Iraq was a failure."
Instead of just parroting one liners. Why don't you argue for the successes the invasion created?
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
icemaη;5319356 said:
No, they are not. You should read (a lot, lot more) about the factional differences in Islam. It's fascinating.



It's just the general lack of knowledge really. Nothing a healthy discussion can't fix (at least a little bit).
Send me some sources to read and I'll check it out. Ze already has :tup:
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
5,017
1.
I don't think Saddam was pursuing WMD's at that point anymore. Read al Baradei's book "The Age of Deception: Nuclear Diplomacy in Treacherous Times" you'll see what the UN inspectors and IAEA's perspective on that was. Saddam would never cooperate with Islamic fundamentalists, that is highly unlikely, they are absolute enemies, secular dictators are one of the fundamentalists biggest enemies. In fact I think in a war on fundamentalist groups, secular dictators such as Bashar and Saddam would probably almost always be your biggest ally in such a war.

2. That's because its a pointless question. You want me to answer if the US should have pulled out completely in 2011-2012? I think it would have made little difference other than postponing the inevitable. The damage was already done in the invasion. Unless the US was completely committed in building a country from scratch in Iraq, and actually put a lot of resources to ensure that Iraq was able to build legitimate institutions, then a vacuum of power was inevitable, and when that happens ISIS will always be ready to pounce on such an opportunity.
1. You are wrong. According to the official sources, Saddam did not have WMDs but he was trying to get them. He was just waiting for the inspectors to leave.

Saddam was a typical secular dictator until the Gulf War.

"Saddam routinely cited his survival as "proof" that Iraq had in fact won the war against the U.S. This message earned Saddam a great deal of popularity in many sectors of the Arab world. John Esposito, however, claims that "Arabs and Muslims were pulled in two directions. That they rallied not so much to Saddam Hussein as to the bipolar nature of the confrontation (the West versus the Arab Muslim world) and the issues that Saddam proclaimed: Arab unity, self-sufficiency, and social justice." As a result, Saddam Hussein appealed to many people for the same reasons that attracted more and more followers to Islamic revivalism and also for the same reasons that fueled anti-Western feelings.[52]

As one U.S. Muslim observer noted: "People forgot about Saddam's record and concentrated on America ... Saddam Hussein might be wrong, but it is not America who should correct him." A shift was, therefore, clearly visible among many Islamic movements in the post war period "from an initial Islamic ideological rejection of Saddam Hussein, the secular persecutor of Islamic movements, and his invasion of Kuwait to a more populist Arab nationalist, anti-imperialist support for Saddam (or more precisely those issues he represented or championed) and the condemnation of foreign intervention and occupation."[52]

Saddam, therefore, increasingly portrayed himself as a devout Muslim, in an effort to co-opt the conservative religious segments of society. Some elements of Sharia law were re-introduced, and the ritual phrase "Allahu Akbar" ("God is great"), in Saddam's handwriting, was added to the national flag. Saddam also commissioned the production of a "Blood Qur'an", written using 27 litres of his own blood, to thank God for saving him from various dangers and conspiracies.[77]"

2. I just don't agree with you here. The question is important because for me had the USA stayed longer in Iraq and/or not supported the insurgents in Syria, there would have been no ISIS. Check the statistic on violent deaths in Iraq. Things were getting much better after 2007/8 and in fact, they were better than during Saddam. You just don't leave before the job is done. The USA fucked it up because Obama he wanted to keep his promise before the election.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
1.) I never said allies. I'm alluding to them both working towards the same goal and more or less staying out of each other's way.
2.) I'm not lumping them together. A terrorist group which makes up a minute pool coupled with the Iranian government which is even smaller is hard lumping them all together.
how is that different from saying the US and ISIS have the same goals?

Both want to get rid of Bashar al Assad and his regime in Syria.

Both are enemies of Iran.


But nowhere near the toll on human life that Saddam was.
How so? I think the number of people killed during and in the aftermath of the Iraq invasion has been so much higher than the deaths caused by Saddam prior to the invasion.

Nothing wrong in pointing out Hustini's ignorance, albeit he does a good job himself.

Btw. what you wrote is just how I feel about "the west" ;)
i won't dispute that. Saying the west, like the US and Switzerland are the same thing is just as bad.

Well, for starters both have the extermination of the other as an objective.
:tup:

No, its not simplistic. Going to war or not is a difficult decision, always. What's simplistic is the retarded pacifists' logic "war is bad, we want peace" or the leftists' "we invaded Iraq and now we have ISIS, therefore the war in Iraq was a failure."
In what way was the war in Iraq not a failure?

Those who waged the war have said multiple times that regime change was not the goal, perhaps the means to reach their goal, but it wasn't a goal in itself. Is Iraq not worse off after Saddam? Of course it is, by all measures it is a lot worse. Is the world a safer place as a result of the Iraq war? of course not, on the contrary you've given ISIS a stronghold.
 

ZoSo

Senior Member
Jul 11, 2011
41,656
Well, there are several things that have to be looked into.

What the US did to Iraq was a disgrace. With a far bigger toll on human life than these attacks will ever have. Frankly, I'd like to see the people responsible for this brought to justice.

As for a reaction towards ISIS.. Sure. I'd agree with that. But the question will be how. If ISIS was an organization grouped in one particular place we'd just bomb it and get it over with. Unfortunately it is far more insidious.

Besides, a friggin' truck was the weapon of choice. Anyone can rent a truck. Maybe it's a lone wolf and ISIS will claim the attack because it makes them look strong.
How about starting with calling it what it is, islamic terrorism, not tip toeing around the issue and a bunch of hastags on twitter. None of this #notallmuslims and #prayforfrance crap that is spread to act like this stuff is tolerated. There needs to be serious action for this stuff i.e. anyone who is found to have links to ISIS or is found to support them should be deported, even if they are a natural citizen. It's not going to be an immediate fix but there has to be proper action.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,326
How about starting with calling it what it is, islamic terrorism, not tip toeing around the issue and a bunch of hastags on twitter. None of this #notallmuslims and #prayforfrance crap that is spread to act like this stuff is tolerated. There needs to be serious actions for this stuff i.e. anyone who is found to have links to ISIS or is found to support them should be deported, even if they are a natural citizen. It's not going to be an immediate fix but there has to be proper action.
No one is saying it isn't islamic terrorism. The hashtags on Twitter aren't government initiatives, their goal is not to provide answers, but to provide support.
 

ZoSo

Senior Member
Jul 11, 2011
41,656
No one is saying it isn't islamic terrorism. The hashtags on Twitter aren't government initiatives, their goal is not to provide answers, but to provide support.
Yes there are, even on this forum. Duh, of course they aren't government initiatives, but they are part of the problem, it trivialises the issue amongst the general population and encourages people to basically accept these acts instead of call for action.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
how is that different from saying the US and ISIS have the same goals?

Both want to get rid of Bashar al Assad and his regime in Syria.

Both are enemies of Iran.
Isis is fighting against Syrian opposition groups as well which serves as a benefit to Iran does it not? Those opposition groups that want Assad out end up getting weakened by another group that wants Assad out too. I only see Iran genuinely turning against ISIS in full coordination with the west or gulf states only when ISIS is coming after them. Right now, again, only my opinion, is that with all the proxy wars Iran is affiliated with, ISIS can serve a purpose to them.
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,545
Yes there are, even on this forum. Duh, of course they aren't government initiatives, but they are part of the problem, it trivialises the issue amongst the general population and encourages people to basically accept these acts instead of call for action.
What on earth are you babbling on about? How you followed the public debate since 2001? Have you seen the dramatic voter leap towards right wing nationalist? How you seen in just what degree freedom have been limited for everyday europeans to prevent terrorism? Have you noticed how many countries Nato or western coalations have bombed in the name of "war against terrorism"?

Your solution is a DDR-like state, but that would mean that every single liberal/democratic-value we are currently defending is lost. And no one even those with a limited intellectual bone can ever, ever justify becoming a totalitarian regime in the war against a totalitarian idea. I hope even you understand the absurdity.

And yes, there's a price to pay for freedom and yes, people have a tendency to go on with their life despite the horrible events. It basic psychology.
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
5,017
In what way was the war in Iraq not a failure?

Those who waged the war have said multiple times that regime change was not the goal, perhaps the means to reach their goal, but it wasn't a goal in itself. Is Iraq not worse off after Saddam? Of course it is, by all measures it is a lot worse. Is the world a safer place as a result of the Iraq war? of course not, on the contrary you've given ISIS a stronghold.
Like I said, the war in Iraq is not the cause of ISIS. Without the premature withdrawal (lol) and the support for the insurgents in Syria, there is no ISIS. Also, I'm not convinced at all that things would have been better with Saddam still in power. There might have been ISIS even without the war in Iraq. We just don't know.

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There's a lot of evidence the Earth is a cube.
You don't bother your elevated mind with things like evidence.
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,545
Like I said, the war in Iraq is not the cause of ISIS. Without the premature withdrawal (lol) and the support for the insurgents in Syria, there is no ISIS. Also, I'm not convinced at all that things would have been better with Saddam still in power. There might have been ISIS even without the war in Iraq. We just don't know.
The post-factual phenomenon strikes again.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jul/12/how-technology-disrupted-the-truth?CMP=share_btn_tw
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
5,017
What are your official sources on the wmd's?

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http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/l...final-report/isg-final-report_vol1_rsi-06.htm

"The report also found that Iraq had worked covertly to maintain the intellectual and physical capacity to produce WMDs and intended to restart production once sanctions were lifted"

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/1...oyed-iraqi-chemical-weapons.html?referer&_r=1

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What are your sources to the contrary?
Do you disprove the claim that Saudi Arabia funds terrorism? If so, who do you think does?
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,326
You don't bother your elevated mind with things like evidence.
If people ask you what your evidence is, you can't answer with 'there's a lot of it'. You actually have to show it. That's what evidence is.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/l...final-report/isg-final-report_vol1_rsi-06.htm

"The report also found that Iraq had worked covertly to maintain the intellectual and physical capacity to produce WMDs and intended to restart production once sanctions were lifted"

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/1...oyed-iraqi-chemical-weapons.html?referer&_r=1

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What are your sources to the contrary?
Do you disprove the claim that Saudi Arabia funds terrorism? If so, who do you think does?
It is impossible to prove the negative. Also, I have never claimed they don't. As far as I'm concerned this is a non sequitur.
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
5,017
If people ask you what your evidence is, you can't answer with 'there's a lot of it'. You actually have to show it. That's what evidence is.



It is impossible to prove the negative.
I mean, are you saying it's not true? Check the wikipedia article on state funded terrorism I linked to. They cite more than 10 sources. Also the wikileaks intelligence reports? That's not evidence?
 

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