'Murica! (36 Viewers)

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
It isn't. But it's unsolvable if you only want to use "soft" methods.

The thing is the populations in the US and in Europe wants soemthing done about immigration, and in the last 20-30 years those in power haven't done enough, add to that the working class' struggles and you have the base from which can build and win on right wing nationalism.

We have these conflicts all around the Western world, there's a crisis in the German Government at the moment based largely on immigration.

If politicians want to keep and defend the liberal democracy, it's tiem to wake up and realise in what direction voters are moving - The Democrats arrogance gave Trump the victory.
The stuff about the kids is heartbreaking, but if soemthing isn't done about migration now, we'll end up shooting people at our borders (and by this I mean that in tiem extreme people will rise to power).

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I fear the number will increase.
If illegal immigration was so costly as it is described, if there was no incentive for the American employer to hire illegal immigrants, we wouldn’t be talking about the issue today. Of course the unskilled uneducated native sees the illegal immigrant who offers his low skills at a lower price as the problem (hence why illegal immigration is framed as the problem to win votes) but overall, the low skilled native could be actually better off because of the illegal immigrant as illegal immigration could have a positive impact on productivity and total welfare.

I agree that valid cases can be made on both sides of this debate from moral and social standpoints and that’s why it’s a controversial issue but 1) to claim that illegal immigration has led entirely to negative outcomes is a big lie with no empirical support and 2) to use children as a deterrent is inexcusable and it really shocks and pains me tbh to see that it has sympathizers.
 

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Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
Immigration is an unsolvable problem. You can make things better or worse, but you can never fix it. As long as there are bad places and better places, people from bad places will want to move to better places.
That has been the case throughout human history. Even authoritarian countries that treat illegal immigrants poorly, much worse than the US still get a lot of illegal immigration. My country Libya for example, is lawless, its the worst place in the world right now for immigrants, especially illegal ones; gangs control the border for the most part, illegal immigrants are abused in absolutely horrific ways and some are even literally enslaved. Yet that still hasn't stopped thousands of illegal immigrants going through Libya to try to get to Europe.

It isn't. But it's unsolvable if you only want to use "soft" methods.

The thing is the populations in the US and in Europe wants soemthing done about immigration, and in the last 20-30 years those in power haven't done enough, add to that the working class' struggles and you have the base from which can build and win on right wing nationalism.

We have these conflicts all around the Western world, there's a crisis in the German Government at the moment based largely on immigration.

If politicians want to keep and defend the liberal democracy, it's tiem to wake up and realise in what direction voters are moving - The Democrats arrogance gave Trump the victory.
The stuff about the kids is heartbreaking, but if soemthing isn't done about migration now, we'll end up shooting people at our borders (and by this I mean that in tiem extreme people will rise to power).

- - - Updated - - -



I fear the number will increase.
This in my opinion is vital. It isn't about immigration per say, western countries need to be practical and realistic and understand what the common voter cares about. In this case perception is just as important as reality IMO, its not ideal, but it is the reality. Unless the political establishment take a harder stance on immigration in general and illegal immigration in particular, we are seeing a trend of more and more voters moving to the extreme right.

If illegal immigration was so costly as it is described, if there was no incentive for the American employer to hire illegal immigrants, we wouldn’t be talking about the issue today. Of course the unskilled uneducated native sees the illegal immigrant who offers his low skills at a lower price as the problem (hence why illegal immigration is framed as the problem to win votes) but overall, the low skilled native could be actually better off because of the illegal immigrant as illegal immigration could have a positive impact on productivity and total welfare.

I agree that valid cases can be made on both sides of this debate from moral and social standpoints and that’s why it’s a controversial issue but 1) to claim that illegal immigration has led entirely to negative outcomes is a big lie with no empirical support and 2) to use children as a deterrent is inexcusable and it really shocks and pains me tbh to see that it has sympathizers.

I agree fully with this, but I really don't think this is the issue, a significant enough chunk of countries populations get their information not from empirical data or peer reviewed articles, they get it from social media, news sites, and the internet. So whether the research shows that immigration produces a net positive effect or not, does not matter as much in the grand scheme of things. We have to accept that reality if we don't want the likes of Trump, and the right wing parties in the UK and western Europe to take control.

Right now, the political establishment have a choice between doing something about immigration or keep losing to the extreme right. If the former take a harder stance on immigration, at least we can trust that they won't go anywhere near as far as the coalition government in Italy or Trump in the US. That has to count for something, in the short term at least.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,188
If illegal immigration was so costly as it is described, if there was no incentive for the American employer to hire illegal immigrants, we wouldn’t be talking about the issue today. Of course the unskilled uneducated native sees the illegal immigrant who offers his low skills at a lower price as the problem (hence why illegal immigration is framed as the problem to win votes) but overall, the low skilled native could be actually better off because of the illegal immigrant as illegal immigration could have a positive impact on productivity and total welfare.

I agree that valid cases can be made on both sides of this debate from moral and social standpoints and that’s why it’s a controversial issue but 1) to claim that illegal immigration has led entirely to negative outcomes is a big lie with no empirical support and 2) to use children as a deterrent is inexcusable and it really shocks and pains me tbh to see that it has sympathizers.
I honestly don't have a lot of issues with immigrants who want to come to Belgium and work. I'm convinced that will largely have a positive effect.

But unfortunately when far right politicians say many will end up on welfare, they have a point. Not to mention that I have known immigrants who came to Belgium precisely to be on welfare and never really had the intention to work.

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icemaη

Rab's Husband - The Regista
Moderator
Aug 27, 2008
34,947
I honestly don't have a lot of issues with immigrants who want to come to Belgium and work. I'm convinced that will largely have a positive effect.

But unfortunately when far right politicians say many will end up on welfare, they have a point. Not to mention that I have known immigrants who came to Belgium precisely to be on welfare and never really had the intention to work.

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Don't you have to be a citizen to qualify for welfare? Or do they get welfare by seeking asylum?
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,188
icemaη;5771096 said:
Don't you have to be a citizen to qualify for welfare? Or do they get welfare by seeking asylum?
They get limited welfare by seeking asylum and usually full welfare when they obtain permanent residency.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,188
icemaη;5771214 said:
Is that the same in other European countries as well?
Not sure. I don't think so. Or at least it's not as easy in other European countries. I used to not believe it when people claimed immigrants came here solely for welfare, but after having had a few Afghan clients who explicitly told me that this was the reason they came to Belgium, I am bit more cynical.

I remember one dude in particular who was disappointed he didn't get more and asked me if I could do something about it.
 

Hængebøffer

Senior Member
Jun 4, 2009
25,185
Not sure. I don't think so. Or at least it's not as easy in other European countries. I used to not believe it when people claimed immigrants came here solely for welfare, but after having had a few Afghan clients who explicitly told me that this was the reason they came to Belgium, I am bit more cynical.

I remember one dude in particular who was disappointed he didn't get more and asked me if I could do something about it.
The way we have build our welfare system, in many European countries, is much more attractive for immigrants than the American which is much more liberal. Look at Canada. Trudeau says a lot of pretty words, but the Canadian immigration politic is much more strict than for example Denmarks. They screen everyone and only take in a small group who fits their criteria.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,188
The way we have build our welfare system, in many European countries, is much more attractive for immigrants than the American which is much more liberal. Look at Canada. Trudeau says a lot of pretty words, but the Canadian immigration politic is much more strict than for example Denmarks. They screen everyone and only take in a small group who fits their criteria.

I agree. I'm not against welfare in general or against reasonable immigration. But it seems as if Europe is divided between hardcore cynics and leftist fairies who think all immigrants want to come and help build us a better society.
 

icemaη

Rab's Husband - The Regista
Moderator
Aug 27, 2008
34,947
Not sure. I don't think so. Or at least it's not as easy in other European countries. I used to not believe it when people claimed immigrants came here solely for welfare, but after having had a few Afghan clients who explicitly told me that this was the reason they came to Belgium, I am bit more cynical.

I remember one dude in particular who was disappointed he didn't get more and asked me if I could do something about it.
From the outside it does look like a system that's easy to abuse and of course there'll be a lot of people just waiting to abuse it.
I agree. I'm not against welfare in general or against reasonable immigration. But it seems as if Europe is divided between hardcore cynics and leftist fairies who think all immigrants want to come and help build us a better society.
Does Belgium have a shortage of labour (low skilled or otherwise)?
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,541
icemaη;5771319 said:
From the outside it does look like a system that's easy to abuse and of course there'll be a lot of people just waiting to abuse it.
You won't get residency in Denmark unless you got a high paid job or granted asylum.

Besides welfare isn't the main problem. Social dumping, and cultural and social problems are far bigger issues. The European populations do not want anymore people from third world countries, especially Islamic countries. There are too many to integrate into our society and our values.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,188
You won't get residency in Denmark unless you got a high paid job or granted asylum.

Besides welfare isn't the main problem. Social dumping, and cultural and social problems are a far bigger issues. The European populations do not want anymore people from third world countries, especially Islamic countries. There are too many to integrate into our society and our values.

It isn't. The fact that these people have no real future in Belgium is a lot worse. But it doesn't give them the sympathy vote.
 
Jun 6, 2015
11,387
Not sure. I don't think so. Or at least it's not as easy in other European countries. I used to not believe it when people claimed immigrants came here solely for welfare, but after having had a few Afghan clients who explicitly told me that this was the reason they came to Belgium, I am bit more cynical.

I remember one dude in particular who was disappointed he didn't get more and asked me if I could do something about it.
I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be telling this to us.
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
I agree fully with this, but I really don't think this is the issue, a significant enough chunk of countries populations get their information not from empirical data or peer reviewed articles, they get it from social media, news sites, and the internet. So whether the research shows that immigration produces a net positive effect or not, does not matter as much in the grand scheme of things. We have to accept that reality if we don't want the likes of Trump, and the right wing parties in the UK and western Europe to take control.

Right now, the political establishment have a choice between doing something about immigration or keep losing to the extreme right. If the former take a harder stance on immigration, at least we can trust that they won't go anywhere near as far as the coalition government in Italy or Trump in the US. That has to count for something, in the short term at least.
That's true.

I honestly don't have a lot of issues with immigrants who want to come to Belgium and work. I'm convinced that will largely have a positive effect.

But unfortunately when far right politicians say many will end up on welfare, they have a point. Not to mention that I have known immigrants who came to Belgium precisely to be on welfare and never really had the intention to work.

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I was talking about the US though. Illegal immigrants here have to do something, they have to find a "job" and they have to offer whatever skills they have at a low price to get that job. There was a research conducted at Harvard that was showing the two demographics that suffer the most from illegal immigration are low skilled blacks and hispanics (and not the low skilled whites). Then see who's the most vocal against illegal immigration to understand how misinformed this whole debate is.
 

lgorTudor

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2015
32,949
I was talking about the US though. Illegal immigrants here have to do something, they have to find a "job" and they have to offer whatever skills they have at a low price to get that job. There was a research conducted at Harvard that was showing the two demographics that suffer the most from illegal immigration are low skilled blacks and hispanics (and not the low skilled whites). Then see who's the most vocal against illegal immigration to understand how misinformed this whole debate is.
Yes and no

Yes, because that Harvard study is not known to them

No, because the information it provides is irrelevant to those people's real motives. 'Immigrants just come here to sit on welfare' is just a facade to hide behind when you want them out for other, lower, reasons

trust the information, it's first hand :klin:
 

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