Massimiliano Allegri (205 Viewers)

[campionesidd]

Allegri was ruining him, yes. If you take a player made for a certain position, and you take it away, that is ruining him, yes.

Lol wut. Chiesa played in a variety of positions last year.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[MikeM]

What is happening at tuz? False propaganda machinery being quickly spread by the plastic fans so that Allegri being blamed for the all problems of the club.Chiesa didn't even start the initial games for Italy until he scored against Austria and it is sickening that a player who has been injured for the most of the season his stats are being used to prove a point.

The biggest problem with the club is that if you have at some point: Vlahovic, Dybala, Morata, Chiesa, Cuadrado, Kean.. you should score more than Verona, Sassuolo and Roma.

End of story. End of discussion. If you want to know why we're fighting for 4th, it's because we do not score goals. If you score goals vs. the minnows, we're not in this predicament.

We just dropped 2 points vs. Torino at home with like a single shot on goal. This is not acceptable, end of story.

All the rest is just excuses for a coach that takes the salary of a world class player. Excuses that were not made for the previous coaches who took 1/4th the salary or even less.

 

[juve123]

The biggest problem with the club is that if you have at some point: Vlahovic, Dybala, Morata, Chiesa, Cuadrado, Kean.. you should score more than Verona, Sassuolo and Roma.

End of story. End of discussion. If you want to know why we're fighting for 4th, it's because we do not score goals. If you score goals vs. the minnows, we're not in this predicament.

All the rest is just excuses for a coach that takes the salary of a world class player. Excuses that were not made for the previous coaches who took 1/4th the salary or even less.

Again you are not stating the entire facts kean is a rookie while chiesa and Dybala have been constantly injured. Vlahovic has been signed in January and is already instrumental in showing how Allegri tactics needs a good center forward who holds up the ball and distributes the ball well.I can understand you only see football in one way ie high pressing good off the ball movement creating overload at the wingback position. Unfortunately Allegri tactics of deep defensive line with absorbing pressure and trying to play on the counter will not make you happy. So either we sack him and hire Zidane with a big transfer budget Or have faith in Allegri that he will deliver the results.

 

[MikeM]

Again you are not stating the entire facts kean is a rookie while chiesa and Dybala have been constantly injured. Vlahovic has been signed in January and is already instrumental in showing how Allegri tactics needs a good center forward who holds up the ball and distributes the ball well.I can understand you only see football in one way ie high pressing good off the ball movement creating overload at the wingback position. Unfortunately Allegri tactics of deep defensive line with absorbing pressure and trying to play on the counter will not make you happy. So either we sack him and hire Zidane with a big transfer budget Or have faith in Allegri that he will deliver the results.

So let me ask you this. Should attackers and midfielders be asked to produce the same attacking contributions when they play in a deep defensive line, absorbing pressure for 90 minutes?

Because right now they put up no attacking stats and people say they are bad. It's a vicious circle. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

So against Roma and Sampdoria, when we play higher and score 4 goals per game, they suddenly become good?

 

[juve123]

So let me ask you this. Should attackers and midfielders be asked to produce the same attacking contributions when they play in a deep defensive line, absorbing pressure for 90 minutes?

Because right now they put up no attacking stats and people say they are bad. It's a vicious circle. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

So against Roma and Sampdoria, when we play higher and score 4 goals per game, they suddenly become good?

Obviously our midfield is our weakest point right now neither do they protect the defense nor do they create anything .We depend on Dybala to link up the midfield with attack otherwise it is pretty much the long ball tactics.As for the stats let us see how many goals vlahovic ends up with to make a definitive answer.

 

[s4tch]

Because right now they put up no attacking stats and people say they are bad. It's a vicious circle. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

jesus christ, you're on a roll dude. while at it, please give me the attacking stats for our midfielders under different coaches. like arthur was a 10g10a player for barcelona, oh no, he wasn't. or rabiot used to score 6-7 goals regularly for psg and the same for sarri and pirlo, fuck he didn't. like morata was a consistent player throughout his career until allegri ruined him, yeah, it's not true either. these mids NEVER in their careers were consistent goal scorers or assist providers. never. but but but allegri lmao, he just keeps ruining everyone's career, just ask tuz.

kulu scores 2 goals against open, terribly organized epl defenses. one is a tap in, the other is something he scored a few times here too, but failed to provide it on a regular basis. tuz: allegri. you can't make this shit up.

after the euros, when the preseason started, we thought we could rely on goals from ronaldo, dybala, chiesa and morata. kean was always gonna be a depth option. now, ronaldo fucked off, morata decided to not shoot even when he faced no one else but the goalie, chiesa came back injured, missed the preseason and never truly got started, and dybala also has a meh season compromised by injuries. tuz: ronaldo ran away because of allegri, morata forgot how to score because of allegri, chiesa got ruined by allegri (his injury is on him too, just read the roma game thread; i'm sure max has something to do with chiesa's euro final injury too, can't wait to find out what). and of course i'm still eagerly waiting for a verdict on dybala. he never was injury prone before allegri? no, that would be inaccurate. allegri could never play him effectively? he scored like 90 goals under allegri, with some pretty good and one bad season, so it's not true either. anyway, tuz's creative, we'll come up with some solution that fits the narrative.

allegri was reportedly furious after the summer mercato. i assume it was true, because the management gave him one of the most expensive winter mercati in the history of the club, and vlahovic is the level of 9 we should have started the season with. guy scores 4 goals (and an other which was recorded as an own goal) in 6 matches. tuz:

take ronaldo away from pirlo on the last day of mercato and give him kean instead. now tell me with a straight fucken face that he'd still finish at 4th place. because that is where the next level is, and i'm sure tuz's ready for it. will you say it, or will you let someone else to take the glory?

 

[MikeM]

jesus christ, you're on a roll dude. while at it, please give me the attacking stats for our midfielders under different coaches. like arthur was a 10g10a player for barcelona, oh no, he wasn't. or rabiot used to score 6-7 goals regularly for psg and the same for sarri and pirlo, fuck he didn't. like morata was a consistent player throughout his career until allegri ruined him, yeah, it's not true either. these mids NEVER in their careers were consistent goal scorers or assist providers. never. but but but allegri lmao, he just keeps ruining everyone's career, just ask tuz.

kulu scores 2 goals against open, terribly organized epl defenses. one is a tap in, the other is something he scored a few times here too, but failed to provide it on a regular basis. tuz: allegri. you can't make this shit up.

after the euros, when the preseason started, we thought we could rely on goals from ronaldo, dybala, chiesa and morata. kean was always gonna be a depth option. now, ronaldo fucked off, morata decided to not shoot even when he faced no one else but the goalie, chiesa came back injured, missed the preseason and never truly got started, and dybala also has a meh season compromised by injuries. tuz: ronaldo ran away because of allegri, morata forgot how to score because of allegri, chiesa got ruined by allegri (his injury is on him too, just read the roma game thread; i'm sure max has something to do with chiesa's euro final injury too, can't wait to find out what). and of course i'm still eagerly waiting for a verdict on dybala. he never was injury prone before allegri? no, that would be inaccurate. allegri could never play him effectively? he scored like 90 goals under allegri, with some pretty good and one bad season, so it's not true either. anyway, tuz's creative, we'll come up with some solution that fits the narrative.

allegri was reportedly furious after the summer mercato. i assume it was true, because the management gave him one of the most expensive winter mercati in the history of the club, and vlahovic is the level of 9 we should have started the season with. guy scores 4 goals (and an other which was recorded as an own goal) in 6 matches. tuz:

take ronaldo away from pirlo on the last day of mercato and give him kean instead. now tell me with a straight fucken face that he'd still finish at 4th place. because that is where the next level is, and i'm sure tuz's ready for it. will you say it, or will you let someone else to take the glory?

Take a step back and look at the sheer amount of excuses you just posted.

 

[s4tch]

Take a step back and look at the sheer amount of excuses you just posted.

thanks for taking the time to read.

 

[MikeM]

thanks for taking the time to read.

You listed like 20 different things except the most obvious. The deeper you play, the harder it is to score. Simple as that. You play deep, Torino comes up the field. You win the ball in your box, Torino presses you. You punt it deep, rinse and repeat. That's how you end up with one goal from a MDL set piece. That's how you drop 2 points. That's how you end up fighting for 4th.

I could be wrong but someone posted Vlahovic's heat map from Torino. He didn't have a single touch in their box. This is a guy, except from one or two matches, that scores basically every time he touches it.

Now to you, it's logical for us to not kill ourselves to supply him as many opportunities as possible. In fact, you are ok with us going in the opposite direction? If you play Torino at home and and give Vlahovic as many chances as possible, you will win the match more often than not. It's so simple to me.

By the way, Arthur did have 7 goals + assists for Barca. Is he prime Lampard? No. Is he a 1 goal + assist player? Also no. So we should find a balance somewhere.

 

[Post Ironic]

So let me ask you this. Should attackers and midfielders be asked to produce the same attacking contributions when they play in a deep defensive line, absorbing pressure for 90 minutes?

Because right now they put up no attacking stats and people say they are bad. It's a vicious circle. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

So against Roma and Sampdoria, when we play higher and score 4 goals per game, they suddenly become good?

When has Mckennie ever played deep in the defensive line. He’s constantly far up the pitch. While you go on and on praising him, he gets caught upfield out of position all the time.

Not to mention Rabiot who is not constantly sitting deep in the defensive line, or Zakaria when he has played. You’re just making stuff up now that our entire midfield is sitting right down on our defensive line lol

If you had decided not to go full bore on your 7-0-3 nonsense you could have made some reasonable points.

 

[s4tch]

You listed like 20 different things except the most obvious. The deeper you play, the harder it is to score. Simple as that. You play deep, Torino comes up the field. You win the ball in your box, Torino presses you. You punt it deep, rinse and repeat. That's how you end up with one goal from a MDL set piece. That's how you drop 2 points. That's how you end up fighting for 4th.

I could be wrong but someone posted Vlahovic's heat map from Torino. He didn't have a single touch in their box. This is a guy, except from one or two matches, that scores basically every time he touches it.

Now to you, it's logical for us to not kill ourselves to supply him as many opportunities as possible. In fact, you are ok with us going in the opposite direction? If you play Torino at home and and give Vlahovic as many chances as possible, you will win the match more often than not. It's so simple to me.

torino was one terrible game indeed, so what. go check seasonal xg stats if you will, you love that stuff anyway. they are good enough to score much more.

fact: these mids never had considerable contribution to attacking stats. never in their career, yet you keep blabbering about playing higher. please be nice and come up with some factual argument backing up your claim that they could do more or just let it go.
fact: our most used attacker guy this season (you know the one you dubbed the striker that won't shoot) always was inconsistent. argue that he always was a 20g10a player and he didn't have a one off season last year. do it, i'll wait.
fact: dybala, chiesa and ronaldo (our attacking trio we started the season with) were unavailable for 45 league games and counting this season. moise kean is our ronaldo replacement, do you even realize it? yet you downplay this completely, both ronaldo's late transfer and the other two's injury. iTs An ExCuSe lol
fact: vlahovic scored 3 in 4 league games. you: but but but torino. jesus.
fact: allegri's teams always played deep, yet they never had issues scoring and winning when we had the right players. neither at milan, nor at juve. ibra got injured, they started to score less (and we won the league in '12). ronaldo gone, chiesa and dybala injured, we score less. just do the math man.

 

[MikeM]

fact: allegri's teams always played deep, yet they never had issues scoring and winning when we had the right players. neither at milan, nor at juve. ibra got injured, they started to score less (and we won the league in '12). ronaldo gone, chiesa and dybala injured, we score less. just do the math man.

Ok but will you concede that we never got actually pressed like we do by every single team? We get pressed by literally every opponent. So it is harder to play out when we win it deep. You have to see that surely. So what is the solution to this problem? Hit long balls to Vlahovic, ok fine. He has to score everything he touches then. Maybe he will! I fucking hope he does.

For your other arguments, they're all moot. We have better players than bad teams. And bad teams score more. End of story. Mourinho is a defensive coach that scores more with Tammy Abraham and El Shaarawy.

And even moreso, we have SEEN our output when we play aggressive. We have SEEN it. There is evidence of THIS Juventus.

Let me ask you, do you like when Locatelli enters the box? He entered it vs. Roma and Samp. Would you like him to enter it more? Surely the answer is yes. Why does he play in defence and Rabiot in attack? Does Rabiot put himself there? You bring up Rabiot all the time as if he writes himself in the lineup. Allegri was playing him at LM when everyone was healthy. There is no defence for this.

We lost 0-1 to Empoli with a 4-3-1-2 in the second match of the season. He put Chiesa at striker and McKennie at CAM. He put Danilo at DM. He literally had Chiesa-Dybala-Cuadrado available to him and he got raped by Empoli. This is inexcusable even one time. There would be no excuses made for Sarri or Pirlo so there should be none for Allegri.

 

[s4tch]

For your other arguments, they're all moot.

of course they aren't, you simply consistently ignore them.

 

[Post Ironic]

of course they aren't, you simply consistently ignore them.

Dude rambles on and on about 4-3-3 high press as though it’s the only possible way to play, a one track, myopic obsession and then calls Allegri stubborn and unwilling to adapt.

 

[Mokku]

We get pressed by every opponent because they have identified 2 major flaws, 1) being that our players don't pass accurately or offensively enough so by pressuring them, they can regain possession without worrying that they'll be hit on the counter and, 2) linked to the previous point that we don't have fast wingers so our midfield play narrow and up to the target man to hold up play whereas, with wingers, we could stretch the play out wide so the opponent would be wary about pressing us so hard. Our players can't do the things you think they can do and our opponents exploit that.

 

[MikeM]

We get pressed by every opponent because they have identified 2 major flaws, 1) being that our players don't pass accurately or offensively enough so by pressuring them, they can regain possession without worrying that they'll be hit on the counter and, 2) linked to the previous point that we don't have fast wingers so our midfield play narrow and up to the target man to hold up play whereas, with wingers, we could stretch the play out wide so the opponent would be wary about pressing us so hard. Our players can't do the things you think they can do and our opponents exploit that.

This is an argument in favour of not playing so deep. I never said our midfielders are special. That's why you CAN'T expect them to break the press. As you just said!

Thank you.

- - - Updated - - -

torino was one terrible game indeed, so what. go check seasonal xg stats if you will, you love that stuff anyway. they are good enough to score much more.

fact: these mids never had considerable contribution to attacking stats. never in their career, yet you keep blabbering about playing higher. please be nice and come up with some factual argument backing up your claim that they could do more or just let it go.
fact: our most used attacker guy this season (you know the one you dubbed the striker that won't shoot) always was inconsistent. argue that he always was a 20g10a player and he didn't have a one off season last year. do it, i'll wait.
fact: dybala, chiesa and ronaldo (our attacking trio we started the season with) were unavailable for 45 league games and counting this season. moise kean is our ronaldo replacement, do you even realize it? yet you downplay this completely, both ronaldo's late transfer and the other two's injury. iTs An ExCuSe lol
fact: vlahovic scored 3 in 4 league games. you: but but but torino. jesus.
fact: allegri's teams always played deep, yet they never had issues scoring and winning when we had the right players. neither at milan, nor at juve. ibra got injured, they started to score less (and we won the league in '12). ronaldo gone, chiesa and dybala injured, we score less. just do the math man.

Bentancur led us in assists one year. 7 assists in the league. Arthur had 7 goals + assists one year. At Juventus he is a ONE goal + assist player. Would you take an extra SIX goals + assists? Yes you would. McKennie can score. Allegri put him on the wing. There is no rationale for that. Locatelli scores every time he enters the box this season. He plays in defence. Rabiot is a useless ZERO regardless of the coach. He is the first name on the sheet. Are they amazing? No. Are they ZERO? No. There is an in between ground.

Morata is the most used attacker. He is inconsistent, yes. Last year he was good. Is he better than Pinamonti who leads the line for Empoli? Thank you.

We lost Ronaldo. Fact. So we should score less than Verona? Thank you.

Vlahovic is a beast. Fact. Didn't touch the ball in the box vs. Torino. Also fact. Dropped 2 points. You accept this, I don't.

I addressed the deepness of Allegri always scoring. Nowadays we don't come out of the back as easy. You know this, I know this. It's disingenuous to not acknowledge this problem.

Never a comment about the evidence that aggressive Juventus scores goal as we've witnessed ourselves this season. Never an admission that we score when we play more balanced.

Should we counter in Europe? I'm fine with it personally. To play this style every week in Serie A? That's why we're in 4th.

 

[s4tch]

...one year...

all you need to know about bentancur and the likes. one year. bentancur had a good year under sarri, due to natural progress and trust from sarri, but regressed heavily under pirlo and rarely contributed this season either. is it the coach? how many assists he had with pirlo? 4 right? this half season he had 3, how is it even possible playing so deep. also, does conte play high enough on the pitch for bentancur to contribute? zero assists so far, we'll see how it changes over time in a much more open league.

Ok but will you concede that we never got actually pressed like we do by every single team?

we are THIS close to connect some of the dots.
- let's assume that allegri never evolved as a coach, because that's your mantra and you're an incredibly smart and handsome stud every female wants to get impregnated by.
- let's assume that allegri always coached the same way throughout his juve career because he said so.
- let's assume that pressing wasn't invited for this season, because it wasn't.
- let's assume that we could cope with pressure from other teams some years ago because we saw how we played.

so what changed? yup: OUR FUCKING PLAYERS. i bet a single jorginho/brozovic/pjanic type (type; not them specifically) would make us twice as press resistant as we are now.

also, considering our current squad, who would you put in front of the defense? arthur? dude can't play a single full game, let alone two per week.

of course we come out of the back like we're shitting bricks. see above.

We lost Ronaldo. Fact. So we should score less than Verona? Thank you.

once again, check your favorite xg. verona massively, incredibly overperforming, we are underperforming. we have the chances, we just don't score them. juve under allegri massively overperformed their xg with a different squad. dare i say, with better players.

btw do you know what's the other word for quality? consistency. this is what our players have been lacking for the 3rd coach in a row. let's bring a 4th coach just to be sure. this squad is surely good enough, strongest on paper. they just play too deep.

 

[JuveE46]

This is an argument in favour of not playing so deep. I never said our midfielders are special. That's why you CAN'T expect them to break the press. As you just said!

Thank you.

- - - Updated - - -



Bentancur led us in assists one year. 7 assists in the league. Arthur had 7 goals + assists one year. At Juventus he is a ONE goal + assist player. Would you take an extra SIX goals + assists? Yes you would. McKennie can score. Allegri put him on the wing. There is no rationale for that. Locatelli scores every time he enters the box this season. He plays in defence. Rabiot is a useless ZERO regardless of the coach. He is the first name on the sheet. Are they amazing? No. Are they ZERO? No. There is an in between ground.

Morata is the most used attacker. He is inconsistent, yes. Last year he was good. Is he better than Pinamonti who leads the line for Empoli? Thank you.

We lost Ronaldo. Fact. So we should score less than Verona? Thank you.

Vlahovic is a beast. Fact. Didn't touch the ball in the box vs. Torino. Also fact. Dropped 2 points. You accept this, I don't.

I addressed the deepness of Allegri always scoring. Nowadays we don't come out of the back as easy. You know this, I know this. It's disingenuous to not acknowledge this problem.

Never a comment about the evidence that aggressive Juventus scores goal as we've witnessed ourselves this season. Never an admission that we score when we play more balanced.

Should we counter in Europe? I'm fine with it personally. To play this style every week in Serie A? That's why we're in 4th.

His approach is a joke this absorbing pressure crap wouldn't stand a fuckin chance in Sunday league idk how this guy is allowed to play this way with Juventus.

Had similar thoughts after torino:

.."You can also see everyone so compact inside our box instead of being spread and marking/covering open surroundings?

why do our players backpedal and get so deep and right outside or even inside our 18 line before making any sort of serious challenge/effort?
Wtf is the point We hope to give up penalties or defend with our feet tied up?
I don't remember any worthy Juve team allow opponents to set foot in our box, now Allegri has put out a red carpet inviting them in.."

 

[Mokku]

This is an argument in favour of not playing so deep. I never said our midfielders are special. That's why you CAN'T expect them to break the press. As you just said!

Thank you.

I'm saying that we play deep because we can't get out, not because we want to play deep and defensive all the time. This is the reason why I go on about playing 3-4-3 or a 3-5-2 because at least Di Sciglio and Pellegrini can roam forward and they both hug the wings and can cross reasonably well. When Bernardeschi returns then a flat 4-4-2 with him and Cuadrado the other side will allow us to move forward more effectively.

 

[GrandeGigi]

I feel it’s obvious what’s happened to our team from coaching standpoint.

Allegri was replaced by Sarri because we got bored of winning scudetti playing the same way. Sarri was probably the choice to deliver more expansive, aesthetically pleasing football which would deliver more commercial revenues and income streams because we hit a ceiling with tv rights, domestic and European football income.

Failed likely as not given enough time, players weren’t suited to his methods, style largely went against the DNA of the club and what players were used to.

Pirlo came next, similar to reasons above. Failed for the same reasons along with lack of experience and being given some younger players with ability but no real top club experience.

Allegri is back because the experiment failed and we have regressed from the point he left. Pragmatism is back, he’s here to bring back the DNA and ethos of the club. No pressure to deliver expansive football internally, pressure to deliver results. In traditional Italian style, he’s trying to build foundations from the back, grind results and make the team (and fans to an extent) suffer for the goal.
In turn we concede less, score less and are tough to watch for neutrals and fans alike.
There are many contributory factors to this of course. He could deliver better football and use different personnel/systems, but whilst he achieves what he’s being brought in to do so far his position won’t be in question to the powers that be.