Chiellini does too. It's weird, cause it's like Conte has instructed the LCB to be the only one to do that.
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Leonardo Bonucci (71 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
- Start date
- Tags 50-50 a_legend bonuccbauer butthurt judas much passing. wow pep's favourite "defender" prodigalsonreturns wasteman supreme
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Unless you were born yesterday, or you havent been a Juve fan, at least since 2010, you would remember Caceres first spell with us.
We had different needs then and we have successfully tried Caceres at our right flank, at least untill his injury...
When he returned to Spain he was kept playing as a RB and in his NT too.
Now, if you claim to know your fottball, you would know that Spanish football generally has a disrespect for catenaccio, they play for the spectacle foremost.
Esp the dominating clubs Real and Barca, they could tolerate a defender who cant defend but is decent going forward, but not a player that is completely useless going forward.
In Italy, a defender who cant defend is (WAS) not a defender! Thats why Italy gave birth to some of the best defenders the world have seen and they have gathered many others of different nationalities.
Barcelona success has changed the world, it had a deep impact to everyone, even to the Italians, who were traditionally pragmatic and would never favor spectacle over performance.
Barca accomplished total football, offering both spectacle and performance. It was mandatory for a defender to be able to push forward and help with the build of offensive play and spectacle.
Caceres was a direct result of that football school, he practically made his carrier in Spain and we loaned him directly from Barcelona. Even if you have missed the chance to see him with us during the years he was our player, this should tell you enough of his offensive capabilities. Caceres ability to go forward was obvious before he joined us, during his time with us and after he left us, the only thing we ever doubted was his defensive solidarity, because Italy andesp Juventus had different standards.
Times have changed.
The latest generations of Italians started to disrespect defensive solidarity over spectacle, the latest crop of crappy Italian defenders are a living example of it.
The Maldinis, Nestas and Cannavaros are no longer the the model examples of young Italian defenders.
There is a distinct lack of defensive quality in the Italian peninsula, reflected by the NT choices, specialists and former glories (once again check what F.Cannavaro says in my signature)
Also, there is a genral rule, that applies to all, that defenders grow better with time, because they mature as footballers and they are able to predict the game, read it, as many say, being less mistake prone and generally more efficient at everything they do.
Caceres may be coming directly from the Barca/Spain football school, but he still is a defender, RB or CB.
Coming from there, one would be expect to be at least decent when going forward, considering the fact of the prequirements there.
This is as common, as every fullback (heck even the DMs, let alone CBs) being able to tackle in Italy.
So one would expect Bonucci to be a better defender than Cacers at his defensive duties, considering where they both come from.
As they both grow more mature, they were suppossed t become even better at that. I was just surprised to see that Caceres has already matured to that level and bonucci didnt...
I hope that clarifies it know...
We had different needs then and we have successfully tried Caceres at our right flank, at least untill his injury...
When he returned to Spain he was kept playing as a RB and in his NT too.
Now, if you claim to know your fottball, you would know that Spanish football generally has a disrespect for catenaccio, they play for the spectacle foremost.
Esp the dominating clubs Real and Barca, they could tolerate a defender who cant defend but is decent going forward, but not a player that is completely useless going forward.
In Italy, a defender who cant defend is (WAS) not a defender! Thats why Italy gave birth to some of the best defenders the world have seen and they have gathered many others of different nationalities.
Barcelona success has changed the world, it had a deep impact to everyone, even to the Italians, who were traditionally pragmatic and would never favor spectacle over performance.
Barca accomplished total football, offering both spectacle and performance. It was mandatory for a defender to be able to push forward and help with the build of offensive play and spectacle.
Caceres was a direct result of that football school, he practically made his carrier in Spain and we loaned him directly from Barcelona. Even if you have missed the chance to see him with us during the years he was our player, this should tell you enough of his offensive capabilities. Caceres ability to go forward was obvious before he joined us, during his time with us and after he left us, the only thing we ever doubted was his defensive solidarity, because Italy andesp Juventus had different standards.
Times have changed.
The latest generations of Italians started to disrespect defensive solidarity over spectacle, the latest crop of crappy Italian defenders are a living example of it.
The Maldinis, Nestas and Cannavaros are no longer the the model examples of young Italian defenders.
There is a distinct lack of defensive quality in the Italian peninsula, reflected by the NT choices, specialists and former glories (once again check what F.Cannavaro says in my signature)
Also, there is a genral rule, that applies to all, that defenders grow better with time, because they mature as footballers and they are able to predict the game, read it, as many say, being less mistake prone and generally more efficient at everything they do.
Caceres may be coming directly from the Barca/Spain football school, but he still is a defender, RB or CB.
Coming from there, one would be expect to be at least decent when going forward, considering the fact of the prequirements there.
This is as common, as every fullback (heck even the DMs, let alone CBs) being able to tackle in Italy.
So one would expect Bonucci to be a better defender than Cacers at his defensive duties, considering where they both come from.
As they both grow more mature, they were suppossed t become even better at that. I was just surprised to see that Caceres has already matured to that level and bonucci didnt...
I hope that clarifies it know...
Caceres is better with the ball on his feet, Bonucci has a longer pass, but Bonucci plays deeper in the defense, because his role is to pass the ball around, he is someone to return the ball under pressure, therefore, he will have less opportunities to go forward, but his long passes can reach further.
It doesnt really matter. We are talking player characteristics here and Caceres being better with the ball on his feet, ranks better, player attribute-wise as an offensive option, plus the fact that you keep ignoring is that he has played far more as RB and it was part of his role to go forward.
At any case, the important thing here is DEFENDING.
When we face a situation when Barza or Chiellini are missing, or both, or when we face a strong adversary, like Galata and defensive solidarity is of extreme importance, who would we pick first?
A former RB, coming from the super attacking Barca, where defending is of lesser importance, or a CB from Italy, who were reknowed to the entire world, as the best stoppers?
It doesnt really matter. We are talking player characteristics here and Caceres being better with the ball on his feet, ranks better, player attribute-wise as an offensive option, plus the fact that you keep ignoring is that he has played far more as RB and it was part of his role to go forward.
At any case, the important thing here is DEFENDING.
When we face a situation when Barza or Chiellini are missing, or both, or when we face a strong adversary, like Galata and defensive solidarity is of extreme importance, who would we pick first?
A former RB, coming from the super attacking Barca, where defending is of lesser importance, or a CB from Italy, who were reknowed to the entire world, as the best stoppers?
That's because you don't understand Bonucci's role in the team in our 3-5-2. In a back four I'd agree with you, but defending is not the important thing, it is only half of the importance of Bonucci's role. He's not a real central defender, which is just as well, considering he's not being asked to play that role.
Bonhead is a curious case, at time he truly is the regista of our defense. I understand what you are saying about his role but the problem with bonehead is his decisions and reactions when under pressure. He might play a good game for 90 minutes but his one odd brainfart every match simply point out to his quality as a player, one we cannot depend on if we are to challenge the elite.
He's still good enough for now even though he makes most of us shit bricks at least twice every single match
He's still good enough for now even though he makes most of us shit bricks at least twice every single match
Glad that we agree that he is not a real CB, or a defender for the same matter!!
Now, as of his role, yes, i agree that he is mostly used for his passing, to be the last man in the defense our players can return the ball and then distribute it to one available player.
This is indeed an important role, that Barza nd Chie are not particularly good at because of their poor passing, BUT, still that doesnt excuse his defensive inefficiences!!
We are not Bari, we are Juventus, we aspire to become a competitive team again, when cannot afford players who can do nothing but pass the ball around.
Because at the highest level, the opposition has quality players and will exploit any weakness we show.
Even if Bonucci's main role is to pass the ball around, inevitably, time will come that he will also have to defend, esp as long as he sits in the heart of our defense.
MAybe at most of the Serie A agmes, he doesnt, but in Chie'a absence, or in tight matches, it is mandatory.
Even versus mediocre teams, once or twice per game, the need arises and Bonucci messes up, almost every single time.
We can be better and dominate the game, but we cannot always dominate it enough not to allow one single opportunity for them.
The better the opposition happen to be, the more chances they get, the more chances they get, the more possible it becomes to exploit our weakness.
In these situations, Bonucci's presence in the heart of our defense becomes our deepest flaw.
Unfortunately, by now most of the teams and players know it and are actively trying to exploit at any given.
This has been proven time and time again and we ought to find a way to fix it!
I am not expecting from Bonucci to become a Nesta and start teaching Barza and Chie how to mark/tackle/diposses/clear the ball.
He will never reach that level, obviously he was far too limited for that, that was obvious from the very day we were investing that immense ammount of cash and players on him.
But the least i was expecting from him, was to learn how to be more efficient at closing doing those holes when the moment demands it!
Just like Caceres did in the last match. Holding one of the CBs slots, he ought to offer at least that much of a comfort.
There are games and moments, that being able to defend and stop the man, becomes of extreme importance.
Heck even Pirlo, does it when it is absolutely needed. Bonucci is just unable to do it, even if his life depends on it.
I am not asking him to change his role, yet simply to improve his defending enough to help us survive those moments.
I sincerely thought that in time, he will improve, it is inevitable for anyone. Even Legro, a far more limited defender became decent enough at the perfect age for the CB, 28-32.
However Bonucci shows evidence that he is not going to improve, he is as raw, (at defending) as the very first years he joined us.
He has the confidence, that the starters place is guaranteed, no matter hsi inefficiencies and occassional mistakes that lead to conceding/point loses/disqualifications.
He was given far too much confidence for all the wrong reasons. There is no ambition to improve, he doesnt even realise that he is holding us back.
We should be more vocal to his criticism, maybe that way he will understand it and do smth about it!
After the super ownage, we had conceded by investing a fortune and Criscito on him, all the while trying to keep as many NT cappers, as we could for the nationalistic ItalJuve project,
we had no choice but to keep and hope that someday he will improve.
A big team like Juventus cannot afford a time bomb in the heart of her defense, if we want to compete at the highest level, though.
We must demand for him to improve, or be replaced by a better a player! And if there is not an Italian good enough for the task, then so be it, lets get a foreigner!
Normally Bonucci should be loaned out some years ago, after being so costly in games and points, up untill last year and then subbed, up untill he reaches the desirable level.
Just like we did with Legro.
Our needs demanded a different strategy back then and we had to accept heavy compromises, but we are not in that desperate position anymore, we really deserve better now!
Now, as of his role, yes, i agree that he is mostly used for his passing, to be the last man in the defense our players can return the ball and then distribute it to one available player.
This is indeed an important role, that Barza nd Chie are not particularly good at because of their poor passing, BUT, still that doesnt excuse his defensive inefficiences!!
We are not Bari, we are Juventus, we aspire to become a competitive team again, when cannot afford players who can do nothing but pass the ball around.
Because at the highest level, the opposition has quality players and will exploit any weakness we show.
Even if Bonucci's main role is to pass the ball around, inevitably, time will come that he will also have to defend, esp as long as he sits in the heart of our defense.
MAybe at most of the Serie A agmes, he doesnt, but in Chie'a absence, or in tight matches, it is mandatory.
Even versus mediocre teams, once or twice per game, the need arises and Bonucci messes up, almost every single time.
We can be better and dominate the game, but we cannot always dominate it enough not to allow one single opportunity for them.
The better the opposition happen to be, the more chances they get, the more chances they get, the more possible it becomes to exploit our weakness.
In these situations, Bonucci's presence in the heart of our defense becomes our deepest flaw.
Unfortunately, by now most of the teams and players know it and are actively trying to exploit at any given.
This has been proven time and time again and we ought to find a way to fix it!
I am not expecting from Bonucci to become a Nesta and start teaching Barza and Chie how to mark/tackle/diposses/clear the ball.
He will never reach that level, obviously he was far too limited for that, that was obvious from the very day we were investing that immense ammount of cash and players on him.
But the least i was expecting from him, was to learn how to be more efficient at closing doing those holes when the moment demands it!
Just like Caceres did in the last match. Holding one of the CBs slots, he ought to offer at least that much of a comfort.
There are games and moments, that being able to defend and stop the man, becomes of extreme importance.
Heck even Pirlo, does it when it is absolutely needed. Bonucci is just unable to do it, even if his life depends on it.
I am not asking him to change his role, yet simply to improve his defending enough to help us survive those moments.
I sincerely thought that in time, he will improve, it is inevitable for anyone. Even Legro, a far more limited defender became decent enough at the perfect age for the CB, 28-32.
However Bonucci shows evidence that he is not going to improve, he is as raw, (at defending) as the very first years he joined us.
He has the confidence, that the starters place is guaranteed, no matter hsi inefficiencies and occassional mistakes that lead to conceding/point loses/disqualifications.
He was given far too much confidence for all the wrong reasons. There is no ambition to improve, he doesnt even realise that he is holding us back.
We should be more vocal to his criticism, maybe that way he will understand it and do smth about it!
After the super ownage, we had conceded by investing a fortune and Criscito on him, all the while trying to keep as many NT cappers, as we could for the nationalistic ItalJuve project,
we had no choice but to keep and hope that someday he will improve.
A big team like Juventus cannot afford a time bomb in the heart of her defense, if we want to compete at the highest level, though.
We must demand for him to improve, or be replaced by a better a player! And if there is not an Italian good enough for the task, then so be it, lets get a foreigner!
Normally Bonucci should be loaned out some years ago, after being so costly in games and points, up untill last year and then subbed, up untill he reaches the desirable level.
Just like we did with Legro.
Our needs demanded a different strategy back then and we had to accept heavy compromises, but we are not in that desperate position anymore, we really deserve better now!
