juventuz emoticon set for your msn!!! (2 Viewers)

[Martin]

great idea, but it's not windows friendly. another way to promote Linux?

You have it backwards. It's msn messenger and (as I found out last night) google talk that are not smilie friendly. It's hardly my fault that gaim and kopete let you import smilie sets while the Windows clients... don't.

See, that goes back to the FOSS world view: the user should have freedom of choice. As opposed to the proprietary view: by default, the user should have no choice, perhaps we'll make exceptions in rare cases.

 

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[Alucard Belmont]

You have it backwards. It's msn messenger and (as I found out last night) google talk that are not smilie friendly. It's hardly my fault that gaim and kopete let you import smilie sets while the Windows clients... don't.

See, that goes back to the FOSS world view: the user should have freedom of choice. As opposed to the proprietary view: by default, the user should have no choice, perhaps we'll make exceptions in rare cases.

I'm not blaming you Martin, I'm just being sarcasm at how you promote open source in every opportunity.

as one of the windows user, these are my arguments :
1. Most commercial application developer write windows specific application as top priority(much more Windows users). You could have similiar free alternative application in open source, but when you saved your works or file using that application, not many users will be able see your works.(same argument, much more Windows users).
2. When a new hardware is out in the market, Windows Driver for that hardware is a must. Linux drivers is complementary.(much more windows users) you have to wait months or years to have that hardware running in Linux.
3. I've been using MS for years,I feel comfortable using that.I'm no more student who have lots of free time to spare.
4. being a developer whom coworkers all using windows OS, you can't afford being different yourself. I don't have free time to switch OS just to test my application.
5. I don't want to jump into "I'm using Linux, I'm cooler than you windows user" bandwagons.

btw, where is MS SQL vs DB2,Oracle,MySql in the FOSS? they forgot to put it there?
I don't like the way Microsoft force their software to users such as IE vs Netscape,Messenger vs ICQ, but these arguments are more than enough to keep me using Windows.

 

[Martin]

Btw I always liked your username

I'm not blaming you Martin, I'm just being sarcasm at how you promote open source in every opportunity.

Let me tell you something. I'm consumer oriented. Ie. I want what's best for me, as the consumer. So when I started out promoting Mozilla on this forum, that was because it was better to use. Of course, one could make all these arguments out of principle just as well, but I tend to be more pragmatic than that.

And let us not forget there is one factor that will always put FOSS in a better position to compete: it's free. If it's free and it's just as good, why would anyone pay for something else?

as one of the windows user, these are my arguments :
1. Most commercial application developer write windows specific application as top priority(much more Windows users). You could have similiar free alternative application in open source, but when you saved your works or file using that application, not many users will be able see your works.(same argument, much more Windows users).

I'm afraid this is a common view and I find that it's not entirely informed. Yes, when you are locked into the Windows world and all the applications you use only have Windows versions, clearly you will have interoperativity issues if you suddenly start using other applications. But this is a bit like thinking that Juve is the only big club in the world, that there are no alternatives. There are plenty of people out there who don't use any Windows software and don't have any problems with this, because all the applications they use are open source and the authors have made an effort to ensure they can read each other's files. And what I'm saying to you is not a vision, a dream, a fairytale. It's reality.

2. When a new hardware is out in the market, Windows Driver for that hardware is a must. Linux drivers is complementary.(much more windows users) you have to wait months or years to have that hardware running in Linux.

Let's get one thing straight. If you're a gamer, you should stick to Windows. I play games once in a while, some of which are Windows-only and I keep a Windows partition around just in case. But if you're a run of the mill user, you don't need state of the art hardware. Nvidia have excellent linux support for their cards, ATI are behind, but you CAN get your card working if you try hard enough (because there are people in the linux community who own those cards and have already tried). Now, when it comes to thinks like SATA controllers, linux drivers are not behind Windows drivers, because this kind of hardware sells more in server space than desktop space, and the manufacturers tend to support linux.

It may sound like a cliche, but installing Ubuntu Dapper on a laptop, a desktop and my desktop at work, I didn't have one hardware issue.

3. I've been using MS for years,I feel comfortable using that.I'm no more student who have lots of free time to spare.

I'm not pushing this on everyone. On this forum alone several people have tried Ubuntu on my recommendation and liked it. That doesn't mean everyone has to using linux. Use whatever you like best, I don't care. But at the same time you are cutting yourself off from the world of software where interoperativity is made easy, where I can put together a smilie set that works with gaim and kopete, but not a single commercial-made chat application.

4. being a developer whom coworkers all using windows OS, you can't afford being different yourself. I don't have free time to switch OS just to test my application.

Let's get one thing straight. It's fine to talk about using another OS if you can. But if you don't have a choice, if your company uses Windows software, I'm afraid you're trapped. The only thing you can do, when the next opportunity comes, is to advocate FOSS for your next project if you want to use a FOSS application.

5. I don't want to jump into "I'm using Linux, I'm cooler than you windows user" bandwagons.

Linux is a fashion statement and it's a political tool. It's also software. I appreciate the politics of it, because FOSS is a good idea. But I don't use it to tell people I'm cooler than you, because linux is more fashionable. That's a waste of time.

btw, where is MS SQL vs DB2,Oracle,MySql in the FOSS? they forgot to put it there?
I don't like the way Microsoft force their software to users such as IE vs Netscape,Messenger vs ICQ, but these arguments are more than enough to keep me using Windows.

Obviously, Ms Sql doesn't run on linux, that shouldn't surprise you.

DB2 is an IBM product (IBM have invested a lot into linux) and it obviously runs on linux just fine. http://www-306.ibm.com/software/data/db2/linux/

Oracle is the ultimate database product and obviously it runs on linux, I even tried it myself once. See their product matrix: http://www.oracle.com/database/product_editions.html

Mysql is indeed FOSS itself, I have built it from source countless times and MySQL AB supports it on the following OSes: RedHat Linux, SuSE Linux, Fedora Linux, Debian GNU/Linux, Ubuntu Linux, Mandrake Linux, MontaVista Linux, ALTLinux, Gentoo Linux, Slackware Linux, Turbo Linux, Yellowdog Linux, Microsoft Windows, Sun Microsystems Solaris, Apple MacOS X, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Hewlett Packard HP-UX, IBM AIX, Novell Netware, SCO OpenUnix, SGI Irix, QNX Software Systems Neutrino. That covers most common Linux & Unix systems, as well as Windows.

And then there is *the* FOSS RDBM: PostgreSQL.

Mysql and Postgresql you can use for free. The others you have to pay for, but if you run linux, you don't have to pay for any other software, that still cuts your costs. But even if for some strange reason you have to use MSSQL, it's only a database server. You can access it from any applications, commercial or FOSS.

 

[mikhail]

Nicely put Martin.

1. Most commercial application developer write windows specific application as top priority(much more Windows users). You could have similiar free alternative application in open source, but when you saved your works or file using that application, not many users will be able see your works.(same argument, much more Windows users).

Really? I wrote a document in Open Office on Ubuntu last night, stuck it on my USB key and brought it in to work, where Open Office on my Windows XP box read it just fine. Interoperability is not difficult - the specifications for OpenOffice's file types are all public, and a programmer could write an application to read and write such files on any modern OS. That Microsoft decline to support it is purely tactical - it's to try to make sure that you can't deal with people not using their software.

It's not just serious FOSS applications in that situation - I've written software, run it on Linux and taken the .txt or .csv files over to a Windows box. Sure, those are trivial examples, but that's because they're an international standard.

 

[Alucard Belmont]

Let me tell you something. I'm consumer oriented. Ie. I want what's best for me, as the consumer. So when I started out promoting Mozilla on this forum, that was because it was better to use. Of course, one could make all these arguments out of principle just as well, but I tend to be more pragmatic than that.

And let us not forget there is one factor that will always put FOSS in a better position to compete: it's free. If it's free and it's just as good, why would anyone pay for something else?

ok,first of all. I am Java developer, I'm using lots of open source solutions in my project, Spring,hibernate,log4j,lucene,etc.. .So you're totally wrong if you think I'm one of MS fansboy.I hate the way MS make the clone .net platform to compete with J2EE.

About Mozzila,yes, it's more secure, maybe better for use,etc.But in the end,because of the users base, you'll notice that most(but not all) of web pages is optimized for IE. in other words, if it doesn't run perfectly on Mozzila, it's fine.but it must work in IE.

it's free? Considering I grow up on country named Indonesia where piracy is everywhere, all those expensive softwares are free as well. for example, you can find a computer software shop in big mall or plaza. The price for one cd is around 1 usd. you can found Windows,Adobe,Office,etc there. but you won't find Linux CD there(because it's not popular).do you see the points? why would they use FOSS when they can easily get pirated softwares and the internet connection required to download FOSS is expensive and slow?

I'm afraid this is a common view and I find that it's not entirely informed. Yes, when you are locked into the Windows world and all the applications you use only have Windows versions, clearly you will have interoperativity issues if you suddenly start using other applications. But this is a bit like thinking that Juve is the only big club in the world, that there are no alternatives. There are plenty of people out there who don't use any Windows software and don't have any problems with this, because all the applications they use are open source and the authors have made an effort to ensure they can read each other's files. And what I'm saying to you is not a vision, a dream, a fairytale. It's reality.

but it's also the truth that even when the author tried to make it as interoperability as possible, there's always some software specific features missing.

Let's get one thing straight. If you're a gamer, you should stick to Windows. I play games once in a while, some of which are Windows-only and I keep a Windows partition around just in case. But if you're a run of the mill user, you don't need state of the art hardware. Nvidia have excellent linux support for their cards, ATI are behind, but you CAN get your card working if you try hard enough (because there are people in the linux community who own those cards and have already tried). Now, when it comes to thinks like SATA controllers, linux drivers are not behind Windows drivers, because this kind of hardware sells more in server space than desktop space, and the manufacturers tend to support linux.

It may sound like a cliche, but installing Ubuntu Dapper on a laptop, a desktop and my desktop at work, I didn't have one hardware issue.

ok, let's take one example.Once upon a time, I tried to get rid of Windows, so I installed Slackware. drivers problem are everywhere including me myself the noob.
for your information,I'm minimalist, I want to make sure that I knew every single software installed in my computer.(that's why I choose slackware).I even tried to do LFS, in the end the learning curve is too high. I gave up in the middle.
one of the easiest example is my mouse scroll doesn't work, though I finally able to make it work after googling.
and then I'm installing ATI specified Driver. I followed the instructions carefully, and try to set it up. and then all those dependencies problem occured. like this package needed. when I googling that specified package, it said that the specified package has dependecies on other package.
then I tried to install the leadtek winfast TV Tuner. Leadtek doesn't provide the Linux driver. after googling,I found the alternative solution in Linux,it worked but the steps needed to make it work doesn't worth it.Comparing to Leadtek windows brainless installer, I need weeks to make it work.

Did you read Linux compatibility list on the net before you buy a new hardware? Windows user for sure won't need to do this.

To wrap it up,I'm saying that Windows still have advantage in drivers department. not because the os itself is better,only because hardware manufacturers doesn't see a linux driver is a must.
you won't found some small taiwanese companies will bother to make linux driver for their hardware.

I'm not pushing this on everyone. On this forum alone several people have tried Ubuntu on my recommendation and liked it. That doesn't mean everyone has to using linux. Use whatever you like best, I don't care. But at the same time you are cutting yourself off from the world of software where interoperativity is made easy, where I can put together a smilie set that works with gaim and kopete, but not a single commercial-made chat application.

because those single commercial-made chat applications doesn't see it as a features needed. if it's important feature to compete with their competitor. it's out in the next version.

Let's get one thing straight. It's fine to talk about using another OS if you can. But if you don't have a choice, if your company uses Windows software, I'm afraid you're trapped. The only thing you can do, when the next opportunity comes, is to advocate FOSS for your next project if you want to use a FOSS application.

Linux is a fashion statement and it's a political tool. It's also software. I appreciate the politics of it, because FOSS is a good idea. But I don't use it to tell people I'm cooler than you, because linux is more fashionable. That's a waste of time.

I'm not talking about you.You obviously are on different class than them. I'm talking about lots of other wannabe who brag that they used Linux. and then switch back to windows not long after that. then they still proudly said that they're linux expert.I've seen lots of these kind of people around.

Obviously, Ms Sql doesn't run on linux, that shouldn't surprise you.

DB2 is an IBM product (IBM have invested a lot into linux) and it obviously runs on linux just fine. http://www-306.ibm.com/software/data/db2/linux/

Oracle is the ultimate database product and obviously it runs on linux, I even tried it myself once. See their product matrix: http://www.oracle.com/database/product_editions.html

Mysql is indeed FOSS itself, I have built it from source countless times and MySQL AB supports it on the following OSes: RedHat Linux, SuSE Linux, Fedora Linux, Debian GNU/Linux, Ubuntu Linux, Mandrake Linux, MontaVista Linux, ALTLinux, Gentoo Linux, Slackware Linux, Turbo Linux, Yellowdog Linux, Microsoft Windows, Sun Microsystems Solaris, Apple MacOS X, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Hewlett Packard HP-UX, IBM AIX, Novell Netware, SCO OpenUnix, SGI Irix, QNX Software Systems Neutrino. That covers most common Linux & Unix systems, as well as Windows.

And then there is *the* FOSS RDBM: PostgreSQL.

Mysql and Postgresql you can use for free. The others you have to pay for, but if you run linux, you don't have to pay for any other software, that still cuts your costs. But even if for some strange reason you have to use MSSQL, it's only a database server. You can access it from any applications, commercial or FOSS.

erl, thanks for the explanation Martin. but I use DB2 on daily basis. I'm just wandering why the author doesn't put database product in that FOSS map.

 

[Alucard Belmont]

Nicely put Martin.


Really? I wrote a document in Open Office on Ubuntu last night, stuck it on my USB key and brought it in to work, where Open Office on my Windows XP box read it just fine. Interoperability is not difficult - the specifications for OpenOffice's file types are all public, and a programmer could write an application to read and write such files on any modern OS. That Microsoft decline to support it is purely tactical - it's to try to make sure that you can't deal with people not using their software.

so before you copy one file to your friends computer who used MS windows. you ask them to install specific application first?

It's not just serious FOSS applications in that situation - I've written software, run it on Linux and taken the .txt or .csv files over to a Windows box. Sure, those are trivial examples, but that's because they're an international standard.

and how many times Microsoft tried to make their own standard? and just because of their user base, force other to follow that.

 

[Martin]

it's free? Considering I grow up on country named Indonesia where piracy is everywhere, all those expensive softwares are free as well. for example, you can find a computer software shop in big mall or plaza. The price for one cd is around 1 usd. you can found Windows,Adobe,Office,etc there. but you won't find Linux CD there(because it's not popular).do you see the points? why would they use FOSS when they can easily get pirated softwares and the internet connection required to download FOSS is expensive and slow?

If that's your argument, then obviously your reality isn't the same as mine. If and when software piracy becomes more enforced in In, you will see a considerable financial burden on companies to spend on Microsoft software. And FOSS will suddenly present itself in a different light. In Norway companies won't risk using software without a licence.

but it's also the truth that even when the author tried to make it as interoperability as possible, there's always some software specific features missing.

This is a non-argument. Of course software is missing features, ALL software is missing features compared to some other application that does the same thing. This is just as true in the commercial world. Take OpenOffice. Yes, it's missing features that Ms Office has. But Ms Office is missing features that OpenOffice has too. If you're trying to say that FOSS in general is less feature rich than commercial apps, then that's not necessarily the case. Yes, there is no FOSS application as good as Photoshop. But *most* people don't need *ALL* the features of Photoshop. And if they only need 95% of them, then gimp covers all that.

ok, let's take one example.Once upon a time, I tried to get rid of Windows, so I installed Slackware. drivers problem are everywhere including me myself the noob.
for your information,I'm minimalist, I want to make sure that I knew every single software installed in my computer.(that's why I choose slackware).I even tried to do LFS, in the end the learning curve is too high. I gave up in the middle.
one of the easiest example is my mouse scroll doesn't work, though I finally able to make it work after googling.
and then I'm installing ATI specified Driver. I followed the instructions carefully, and try to set it up. and then all those dependencies problem occured. like this package needed. when I googling that specified package, it said that the specified package has dependecies on other package.
then I tried to install the leadtek winfast TV Tuner. Leadtek doesn't provide the Linux driver. after googling,I found the alternative solution in Linux,it worked but the steps needed to make it work doesn't worth it.Comparing to Leadtek windows brainless installer, I need weeks to make it work.

Did you read Linux compatibility list on the net before you buy a new hardware? Windows user for sure won't need to do this.

To wrap it up,I'm saying that Windows still have advantage in drivers department. not because the os itself is better,only because hardware manufacturers doesn't see a linux driver is a must.
you won't found some small taiwanese companies will bother to make linux driver for their hardware.

First of all, if you want an experience from linux anywhere near Windows, Slackware is the *worst* distro to choose. It's the ultimate hacker's distro, for people who want to tinker with it day and night. If you want "Windows in linux", you should pick Ubuntu.

Yes, Windows is better on drivers. But the situation is in _constant change_. If you boot the ubuntu livecd today, I'm pretty sure the following will happen:
* your mousewheel will scroll
* your ATI card will work just fine
* your tv tuner still won't work

Did you read Linux compatibility list on the net before you buy a new hardware? Windows user for sure won't need to do this.

This is like saying "if you want to play the latest version of Quake, you need to buy a computer with a fast cpu and video card". Informed users make informed decisions. Whatever hardware you buy, Windows will support it anyway. That doesn't mean you should be oblivious to it. When you buy a car, do you pick one at random? Or do you actually consider which one is best for you, based on its parameters?

The next time I buy a tv tuner I will check if linux supports it. Or if I'm too lazy, I will just buy my whole computer from one of those stores that test all the hardware to make sure it works with linux. There aren't a lot of them yet, but new ones are opening all the time.

because those single commercial-made chat applications doesn't see it as a features needed. if it's important feature to compete with their competitor. it's out in the next version.

The commercial logic fails at this point. Ask yourself this.. why do commercial companies give out chat clients for free? Is it because they want the satisfaction to have the most users on their networks, using their servers, running at a loss? No, they use it as a ploy to attract users to their services. Yahoo messenger wants people to use Yahoo mail and other Yahoo services they charge for. The focus is still on making money. FOSS chat clients are not only built BY users themselves, they are OPEN, which means if you're a user and you think "wouldn't it be cool if I could use different smilie sets", you can implement that change yourself. And it might be accepted into the code. Yahoo messenger doesn't have this process and thus doesn't support things that users might want.

I'm not talking about you.You obviously are on different class than them. I'm talking about lots of other wannabe who brag that they used Linux. and then switch back to windows not long after that. then they still proudly said that they're linux expert.I've seen lots of these kind of people around.

There are idiots everywhere, it's a waste of time thinking about them.

erl, thanks for the explanation Martin. but I use DB2 on daily basis. I'm just wandering why the author doesn't put database product in that FOSS map.

There IS no FOSS product anywhere as good as Oracle, that's just a fact of life. And that's because home users don't need Oracle. Small companies don't need Oracle. Midsize companies will consider Oracle, the licence fee for ONE server is $10,000 (I'm not kidding!!!). Big companies will use Oracle.

So unless you have a need for big databases, you don't have to pay for an RDBM.

 

[mikhail]

so before you copy one file to your friends computer who used MS windows. you ask them to install specific application first?

Turn that question around: why should I pay €300 for MS Office just because my friend uses it? That's daft.

And yes, my friend will need some software to read anything I or anyone else writes on a computer. I don't see that as a reason to perpetuate a monopoly and lock my files in to one company's convenience.

and how many times Microsoft tried to make their own standard? and just because of their user base, force other to follow that.

I wouldn't care if they made their standard open. Instead, you have Org trying to reverse engineer documents to figure out what the hell they're doing.

 

[Alucard Belmont]

If that's your argument, then obviously your reality isn't the same as mine. If and when software piracy becomes more enforced in In, you will see a considerable financial burden on companies to spend on Microsoft software. And FOSS will suddenly present itself in a different light. In Norway companies won't risk using software without a licence.

my company has license to use MS OS as well as most other midsize and big size companies in Taiwan.

This is a non-argument. Of course software is missing features, ALL software is missing features compared to some other application that does the same thing. This is just as true in the commercial world. Take OpenOffice. Yes, it's missing features that Ms Office has. But Ms Office is missing features that OpenOffice has too. If you're trying to say that FOSS in general is less feature rich than commercial apps, then that's not necessarily the case. Yes, there is no FOSS application as good as Photoshop. But *most* people don't need *ALL* the features of Photoshop. And if they only need 95% of them, then gimp covers all that.

let's say your client used ms office(the possibility is very high here) and some ms office software specific feature to create document. and then to enable those specific features, you must use MS Office. so what's your choice here? personally I haven't experience this since I never used open office. maybe I should give it a try before I comment further on this.

Yes, Windows is better on drivers. But the situation is in _constant change_. If you boot the ubuntu livecd today, I'm pretty sure the following will happen:
* your mousewheel will scroll
* your ATI card will work just fine
* your tv tuner still won't work

tried Ubuntu livecd today. the results are :
- mousewheel works.
- Nvidia t 4200 card works, but resolution option at most is 1024X768. need some tweaking here. not sure if the used standard vga driver or they have installed nvidia specified driver.
Usually I worked at 1280X960 resolution.
- tv tuner doesn't work.
- integrated network card driver is installed properly, but for some unknown reason can't surf the net.

when you installed windows, they also don't detect all those hardware automatically. the difference is the hardware manufacturer provide windows driver.

This is like saying "if you want to play the latest version of Quake, you need to buy a computer with a fast cpu and video card". Informed users make informed decisions. Whatever hardware you buy, Windows will support it anyway. That doesn't mean you should be oblivious to it. When you buy a car, do you pick one at random? Or do you actually consider which one is best for you, based on its parameters?

The next time I buy a tv tuner I will check if linux supports it. Or if I'm too lazy, I will just buy my whole computer from one of those stores that test all the hardware to make sure it works with linux. There aren't a lot of them yet, but new ones are opening all the time.

when you don't have to check Linux supports. you have more choices available.

The commercial logic fails at this point. Ask yourself this.. why do commercial companies give out chat clients for free? Is it because they want the satisfaction to have the most users on their networks, using their servers, running at a loss? No, they use it as a ploy to attract users to their services. Yahoo messenger wants people to use Yahoo mail and other Yahoo services they charge for. The focus is still on making money. FOSS chat clients are not only built BY users themselves, they are OPEN, which means if you're a user and you think "wouldn't it be cool if I could use different smilie sets", you can implement that change yourself. And it might be accepted into the code. Yahoo messenger doesn't have this process and thus doesn't support things that users might want.

yes, it's a ploy to attract users to their services, as well as for displaying ads. hence they need to make their chat clients better than other to attract more users.

There IS no FOSS product anywhere as good as Oracle, that's just a fact of life. And that's because home users don't need Oracle. Small companies don't need Oracle. Midsize companies will consider Oracle, the licence fee for ONE server is $10,000 (I'm not kidding!!!). Big companies will use Oracle.

So unless you have a need for big databases, you don't have to pay for an RDBM.

We don't need that , but our clients do.Being IBM Business partner, selling IBM products like DB2, AIX and ISeries is one of our main income.

 

[manos]

how caan i put a smile for an image of mine???/Because i put the sites and they don't start