Juventus vs Chelsea (2 Viewers)

denco · May 9, 2005

I have read far too often on this forum how Capello has had to deal with a very ordinary squad and Mourinho has to deal with a very good squad with so much money to spend

Well I wanna compare them and see how much thats not true and how Mourinho has done a fantastic job with what he has and Capello has a good job but not a fantastic one as some are trying to convince me off

Goal keepers, nothing to choose from between Buffon and Cech, with maybe Buffon nudging it a bit but not by much, as neither side has had to rely on their subs much, thats a non factor

Right full back Juve have at their disposal, Birindelli and Zebina while Chelsea has Ferreria and Glen Johnson
Ferreria cost 12m but thats because it was Chelsea as he is totally ordinary whilst Johnson is a joke as a defender, Zebina is not great but he is athletic while Birindelli is reliable, its debatable but i will pick the Juve pair.

At left back Chelsea have Gallas and Bridge while we have Zambrotta and Pessotto, now the name that sticks out a mile of that four is Zambrotta, no contest while Gallas is competent he is no left back and hates it there, Bridge might be the only 1 who is naturally left footed but he is so ordinary and overrated its disgusting

Central defenders, well this is the hub , right here, Chelsea has Terry, Huth, Carvallho, Gallas again while we have Cannavaro, Thuram, Montero, Ferrara, now its arguable if Terry is as good as Thuram or Cannavaro, personally i think not yet, but i thought Carvalho was quite magnificent at Euro2004 and though he is more skilled than all of the rest he is prone to mistakes . Gallas is superior to Montero and Ferrara but i am not so sure Huth is. Who wins this is open to debate

Midfield Chelsea has Duff, Robben, Makele, Jarosik, Smertin, Geremi, Tiago, Lampard and Cole while we have Nedved, Blasi, Appiah, Tacchinardi, Camoranesi, Kapo, Olivera and Emerson

Robben is superior to anything we can throw at Chelsea is I am being honest but is Lampard better than Nedved? When Mourinho came , he allegedly told Chelsea players they will win the league and he told Lampard , you are the best player in the world, and Lampard this season has played like it at times, now thats man management. Do you honestly think that Capello has gotten the best outta Nedved, injuries notwithstanding, is he playing him where he likes to play and is it really necessary to antagonise your captain by continually substituting him no matter how he is playing just to prove a silly point instead of inspiring him with confidence.
Anyways back to comparism, got carried away there,sorry, is Makelle better than Emerson? Is cole or Duff superior to Camoranesi? Will Tiago get into Juve's team? Is he really better than Appiah, Tacchinardi or Blasi? Is Jarosik better than anyone? Is smertin? Yes Chelsea have players but are a lot of them useful at all?

Strikers
Would you in all honesty exchange Trez's eye for goal to Drogba's pace and power but ultimately poor finishing and very poor ball control?
Is Gudjohnsen superior to Dp? Is Kezman really worth discussing? In all seriousness, no way has Cheslea got a strike force like ours
They would look in envy with Trez scoring prowess, Dp's guile and finese, Zlatan's ball control and skills and Zala as a good back up

I just dont see how Capello has an inferior squad, he is just too negative and he ahs a nice bunch of players to pick from out there, why we don't play well most of the time is beyond me and all that silly long balls is just annoying

Another interesting thing Mourinho did was at pres season he told the players they would be giving pre match talks and apparently they have been doing that all season, now that brings bondness and friendship, but you can actually see in this forum a thread asking who are Zlatan's friends , might seem silly but when you look at Juve sometimes they act like strangers with some players not wanting to pass to each other, very strange

Dan · May 9, 2005

Right back we win at?

Lets see. We have Zebina, Pessotto and Birendelli. Glen Johnson sucks, agreed. however, Gallas can play at RB, and he is better then anyone in Juventus in that position. Feirara is also better then anyone at Juventus too.

We win at LB 100 percent.

CB, they have more quality depth. We only have Cannavaro and Thuram, who are only slightly better then Terry and Calvarho. Montero is alot worse then Jarosik Feirara and Gallas in that position. Not to mention Huth.

Midfield, they win 100 percent!

Robben as you said is greater then anyone at juventus, and when you have a midfield pairing of Makelele Lampard which is miles better then Emerson and Blasi. And then Duff and Robben on the wings as opposed to Camo and Nedved? No chance. Not to mention their midfield depth is better, with Cole, Geremi and Parker warming the bench as opposed to our Appiah, Tacchi and..pessoto in the midfield? (who capello has gotten alot out of btw)

Yes, our strike force is very comparable to theirs. Mourinho didnt get the best out of Drogba. Nor Kezman, whilst Capello got 2 vital goals out of Trez after long lay offs. Capello also led Zlatan to 15 serie a goals on his debut season, not to mention we are TOP by 3 points. Capello also made alot out of Zalayeta, incase you forgotten, where was he all last season? This season he has scored goals for us in vital occasions.

Capello has also made Cannavaro into a super player again. Capello transformed Camo. We are top with a team inferior to Milans. Thats great coaching IMO. So lets stop looking at the tiny negatives Capello has brought (ie DP substitution, but in the end its paying off because when he does step his game up ala milan Cap keeps him on) and look at the bright points as i just mentioned.

denco · May 9, 2005

++ [ originally posted by Dan ] ++

So why can't Capello play Nedved with Emerson or is there a law against that. My point was thay you guys make a lot out of how poor our squad is and it is not poor and you are trying to make the most of Chelsea while not giving praise to the coach, didnt Ranieri mess up this same squad?
Well its a matter of opinion but i wont take Ferraria over any of our right backs and yes Gallas is a very good defender but he is limited going forward.
How pray tell with the likes of Parker and all that you mentioned fare in SerieA?

Dan · May 9, 2005

Duff would kick arse. he is pure class. So would robben. Joe Cole would do well aswell, so would Lampard and Makelele.

I never said we have a poor squad, but there is no doubt we arent complete and we are inferior to alot of teams in Europe. Im not complaing that much, we are still easily in the top 10 and we are making routine knockout rounds, but we have big gaps that need to be filled still.

Bjerknes · May 10, 2005

Well to be fair here, I think the quality of both sets of squads is about equal. The defenses of both clubs are about on par with each other, with Gallas, Carvalho, Terry, and Ferriera matching up rather well with Zambrotta, Cannavaro, Thuram, and Zebina respectively. In midfield Chelsea has the likes of Makelele, Duff, Lampard, and Joe Cole, and that matches is an arguably better midfield than Emerson, Camoranesi, Blasi, and Nedved respectively. Now when you throw Arjen Robben into the mix Chelsea clearly has the superior first team midfield, and considering Nedved has been out of action for quite some time and is past his climax in his career, Lampard has now taken over for him in perhaps being the best all-around midfielder in the game. Then when you compare the forwards I think Juventus comes out on top, especially with the display of Ibrahimovic. Kezman, Drogba, and Gudjohnson are not that far behind Del Piero and Trezeguet, however the latter two takes the plaudits.

But what sets Chelsea apart from Juventus is their great depth and quality players sitting on the bench. Mourinho has a bench consisting of Joe Cole, Tiago, Alexei Smertin, Jiri Jarosik, Geremi, Kezman, Huth, and Bridge. Compare that to what Capello has at Juve; Olivera, Appiah, Tacchinardi, Kapo, Zalayeta, Montero, and Pessotto, and you see an obvious difference in class, especially in the midfield department. I would take Tiago any day of the week over Appiah and Joe Cole over the player I thought had some talent Olivera. Jarosik is not a bad midfielder and Geremi is a very solid player who can fill many positions, one I would take over a few at Juve. So the bench at Chelsea is clearly superior to Juve, however when you look at both starting lineups they are about equal.

That said, Mourinho has the luxery of calling on a number of players to get the job done, however he usually sticks to the same proven players such as Lampard, Terry, Carvalho, Makelele, Robben, and Drogba, much like Capello with the first choice squad at Juventus in his favored 4-4-2 system. So with Mourinho choosing usually the same top squad, and with both sets of players being pretty much equal, we can judge each manager rather fairly.

So if you compare Mourinho's recent history to Capello's, it's obvious Jose seems to be the better manager. Mourinho started out with an average Porto side in 2002, turning them into UEFA Cup champions in 2003 and winning the domestic title. Then Mourinho took his Porto past clubs such as Deportivo and Monaco to win the Champions League, a feat that nobody was expecting to happen. During this time Mourinho made players such as Carvalho and Deco world class, as I doubt without his help those players would have made it without him. How many players has Capello made world class?

Capello had a world class squad with Milan when he took them to three consecutive CL Finals in the mid 1990's, only winning one against Barcelona. During this period he won the Scudetto a few times, one year setting a record of fewest goals against in a title winning season. Even though he had great players such as Savicevic, Papin, Boban, and Albertini to get the job done, he did not always rely on those world class players. He always favored his defense over his stars, and built a wall to protect his world class defense. Capello had his set system, not doing much to try other things, and it worked well in Serie A but not always in CL Finals.

So my conclusion from this is that Mourinho is probably the better manager just for his work with Porto and now with Chelsea, something I doubt Capello would have been able to do. However Capello certainly isn't far behind Jose, and his record is actually quite better. Mourinho seems to be able to improve individual players better than Capello, perhaps because the latter has always had a good squad to work with. Mourinho has now turned Lampard and Terry into world class players, and Joe Cole has finally found some great consistent form. Also Mourinho's off the pitch tactics are superior to Capello, however wrong they may be. But at the end of the day both are top managers.

Azzurri7 · May 10, 2005

Mourinho can buy any player he wants, he can just SMS the Russian Boss and he'll buy the player he wants....

Mourinho has an advantage here.

gray · May 10, 2005

Without getting too involved in the discussion, I think the big difference between Juve and Chelsea is the quality of players they can have on the bench.

When you see names like Montero, Ferrara, Masiello and De Ceglie on the bench, you can't help but feel that they're just there to make up the numbers.

sallyinzaghi · May 10, 2005

Our squad lacks depth.

Some sections from a UEFA article on Capello's management tactics,

Blackwell told uefa.com: "Fabio feels that while coaches coach and managers manage, players should take responsibility in how they train, mentally prepare and play," he said.

Quick learner
"If I wanted to implement anything I saw in Italy immediately it would be the preparation and how the players focused," he said. "An hour before the game I saw five players methodically do stretches and another group practice free-kicks, knocking ball after ball into the top corner. They mentally rehearsed their roles within the game. I thought it interesting to see the same free-kick scored in the match.

Nurturing talent
"All our academy staff feel our youngsters need to be more attuned into match preparation," added Blackwell. "We've got to try and instill the same discipline, culture and desire into our players and put in place what I've seen in Juventus and bring them through their career in a professional manner."

Boom or bust
Although Leeds missed out on promotion to the Premiership this season, the future looks much healthier, especially when you consider they were close to going out of business last year. "Everybody tipped us to go down but we've avoided that," said Blackwell.

Conquering Europe
"With a stronger squad and putting into place what I've learned at Juventus our aim is a top-six finish next season," Blackwell added. "As a club we've enjoyed some great nights in Europe and watching a top club behind closed doors really excites you as a coach. There's no doubt I'd love to have the opportunity to compete on that stage - and Leeds are big enough to do that."

___________________-

Eire · May 10, 2005

call me slightly biased if yo like but imo duff is just as good as robben but maybe not quite as fast but still faster than camo or neddy.

if robben was irish and duff was dutch i think duff would get more credit around europe.

and duff has a higher work rate

overall chelsea and juve have fairly even teams with juve more solid in midfield but chelsea more creative but their forward are not as good as ours they need more chances to score.

it would be very close between these two over two legs, only sum times italian teams are so afraid of losing they dont take risk while english teams can be a bit tactically niave. it would have been intriging to see juve v chelsea champions league semi too a tie that would have been to close to call

denco · May 10, 2005

The only point i was trying to prove here is that our squad is not as bad as some people are trying to say and Capello is not performing miracles with his resources.

Now some have put up some interesting arguments which well i do not necessarily agree with but are what talking about

I want to know whether you can truthfully say and its all hypothesis , how would you feel if we had Huth as cover instead of Montero or Ferrara, would you be more confident in him. Personally i find him cumbersome, full of mistakes and slow but he has a hard shot on him and he is something of a cult figure

Would the likes of Blasi, Tacchinardi or Appiah be flops in Epl? Robbies Savage is a cult hero here, is Blasi any different from him?

Would you seriously want to see a team with Tiago, Jarosik, Geremi in your team in a big serieA or Cl quarter final game?

Yes Chelsea have numbers but they do not have an abundance of superstars or big name players in their squad, they do not have the quality of Milan, Barcelona and Inter

They have a very rich benefactor but that has nothing to do with their success, they have a top manager who has gotten a lot of his players thru his unique methods.

Do you feel we will be top of serieA or qualify for Cl if we had Drogba, Kezman leading our attack?
It was a stroke of genius to move Gudjohnsen to midfield as he is not an out an out goal scorer.

If you look at the job at Psv and see what Hiddink has done, now thats an achievement with players you won't normally associate with big clubs, he did it with South Korea as well

So i hate to read that Capello has done something remarkable when he has such a good squad

@ Dan, there was no time that Cannavaro was bad, he was just played out of position at Inter as he always did well for the Nt so spare me the Capello revived his career Bullshit

Mr. Gol · May 10, 2005

I think that Duff is more useful for a British team. He is stronger then Robben and works much harder, winning more balls for the team.

But the big difference is that Robben is ALWAYS injured. I'm afraid that he will end up like Overmars (who was a better player in his time then Robben) and only able play 45 minutes per game.

Desmond · May 11, 2005

A word about the left backs,IMO Pessotto is as underrated as they come and he's quite exemplary to players all over the world.He's as reliable as anyone on the team and has tons of experience,plays his heart out and never tries to be too fancy.

I'd pick Zambro-Pessotto any day.

Hydde · May 11, 2005

agree that our squad is not bad.,,,,, ok,,, in reality our squad is more than competitive in comparison with a lot of teams in europe.

Like denco said,, i think much of this have to be with the toughness of capello and the lack of involvement between the players. I agree that DP has not been totally well this season....but between lippi and capello we went totally the opposite çinstead of balancing. Lippi played DP ALL the games even when maybe divaio and miccoli were a better option....while capello in a lot of games subbed De Piero in the 5o-60 minutes without any reason,,sometimes he was even playing ok.

Things like this can influence in a bad way, instead of giving the guy the adviçce that he have to improve.... it seems like capello wanted to say he really sucks all the time.

What we lack is a combination of creative players who can take the ball with tem forward and create....and i think that a change of tactics,,,,, at leats to experiment.

In the end... im very sure that we could have been in the final instead of Liverpool.... but those 2 reasons i explained eralier i think marked the difference between our results.

maybe we need in the future a more agressive coach who want to experiment more.

Gandalf · May 11, 2005

I think that is the main difference between mourinho and Capello.. they are both great tacticians.. but, capello is weaker in developing individuals within the team.. and that will affect the on the total outcome of team work.. "the chain is as strong as its weakest ring".. that explains how we lack harmony in our game play IMO..

Stu · May 11, 2005

I'm with Denco on this one. The Chelsea squad isn't nearly as good as it's made out to be. They have some very good players but when you look at the team on the whole you realise that man for man they aren't superior to Juve, Milan, Inter, Manure or Arsenal and only their defence sets them apart from Real and Barca.

I heard someone say the other day at school something along the lines of "who couldn't win the Premiership with the squad Mourinho has at his disposal?". I tell you what, a lot of managers wouldn't have come close to matching what Mourinho has done.

Jose is a superb man manager, better than anyone else in that department as far as I'm concerned, as he gets the very best out of his players. Though Joe Cole is obviously extremely gifted he has improved a great deal under Mourinho. Lampard has taken his game to a new level and Gudjohnsen is now deservedly a first team regular.

IMO Capello is too negative and negativity will NOT get the best out of Nedved or DP. The defence has been very very solid, but is it really necessary to have two holding midfielders in the centre of the park? Is it really worth sacrificing potential attacking threat to ensure our already resolute back four is more than adequately protected. I'd like to think that Emerson infront of Thuram and Cannavaro would be enough to ensure a hefty tally of cleansheets, so why not throw in a more adventurous player further up the park? Personally I'd like to see more of Kapo. I feel that Nedved is a much better player in a central attacking role so next season we could perhaps try Chiellini at left back, Zambrotta in midfield and Nedved in the trequartista role. If not, we definitely need to bring in a playmaker. Predictability has found its way into the side as a result of our lack of creativity. We move the ball slowly and seem devoid of ideas. This was the case against Liverpool and we resorted to long balls in the latter stages of the match and I'm sorry but route one football just doesn't work when you have DP upfront.

Back to the comparisons between Chelsea and Juve...

Buffon and Cech are both excellent goalkeepers, not much to choose from there.

They both receive good protection from their respective central defensive duos. Thuram, Cannavaro and Terry have had magnificent seasons while Carvalho and Gallas are both very good players. I'd say Chelsea has a better central defence. Our first choice pairing may be on par or better but they can call upon Gallas and Huth, if Thuram or Canna are suspended or sustain an injury we have to call on Montero or Ferrara.

I think I would choose Zebina, Birindelli and Pessotto over Ferreira, Johnson and Gallas.

Zambrotta, Pessotto and Birindelli over Gallas and Bridge for sure. Chelsea need to bring in a left back this summer.

Midfield goes to Chelsea. Emerson, Camoranesi and Nedved are fine players but we don't have the depth that Chelsea do. IMO Makelele and Emerson are about even, the latter may be a little bit better, but Robben is better than all of our wide players and Lampard better than all of our centre mids. Blasi, Appiah, Tacchinardi, Olivera and Kapo or Tiago, Cole, Duff, Jarosik, Smertin and Geremi? I give Chelsea the edge.

Upfront we win, no two ways about it. Trezeguet, Ibrahimovic, Del Piero and Zalayeta > Drogba, Kezman, Gudjohnsen.

Conclusion? It's not Chelsea's players that make them a better team than us.

bigjesus · May 11, 2005

It must be Mourinho. Lampard is playing even better than last season. Their defence ist probably the best of the world. They way they fought back against Barca at Stamford Bridge was fantastic. It seems that every single player is top motivated and believes in his skills.

On Boxing Day Mourinho talked about losing the next game and before Champions League half-final he was telling he has never lost a half-final but wouldn't be suprised to lose the next. He is also perfect in decresing the pressure on his team.

A_LAcki · May 12, 2005

Mourinho really knows how to motivate his lads and I think he is the real reason behind Chelsea's success. Still, he is an arogant idiot!

Cronios · May 12, 2005

They have a better-bigger-faster squad and a better coach,
but they arent so in form after their doc left:devil:

Desmond · May 12, 2005

Not exactly faster though.They can beat us in pace in every department.

#10 · May 12, 2005

Gigi vs Cech : Draw
Zebina vs Ferraira : 0-1
Lilian Vs Carvalho: 0-2
Canna vs Terry: 0-2
Rambo Vs Gallas: 1-2
Camo vs Duff: 1-3
Emo Vs Makele: 2-3
Blasi Vs Lampard: 2-4
Neddy Vs Robben: 2-4
Zlatan Vs Drogba: 2-4
Dp Vs Cole: 3-4

according the primary lineups, we only lose by one point. However the only positive remaining on the bench for us are trez, zala and kapo....everything else is doesnt stand a sniff agaisnt chelsea.

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