Israeli-Palestinian conflict (97 Viewers)

[Post Ironic]

PLO officially recognized Israels right to exist in the run-up to the Oslo peace accords.

Saying there are no good guys is kind of moot in this context. Its not about good guys, its about fulfilling UN resolution 242 and exiting the circle of violence. Hamas didnt just magically pop up, they filled a political vacuum because the UN (US has been systematically undervisning any real efforts on behalf of Israel). You cant deradicalize by pressing your foot harder on their throat. So either Israel is forced to give concessions or they will exterminate the Palestinians.


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I’m not arguing with any of this. I agree with you. Oslo should have been the end of it, two states finally created. But Arafat wasn’t even willing to negotiate.

Well, it’s probably naive to say the end of it. There would still be problems, but the Palestinians would have had a state.

 

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[BayernFan]

They had every right to refuse, of course. But then they lost the civil war, then the 1948 war, then aligned themselves with the USSR and lost the 67 and 73 wars.

They lost. Simple. Does it make the Israelis the good guys? Absolutely not. But all this is just the nature of human history. Migration, war, conquest, winners, losers.

Exactly.

When you lose wars you tend to lose land, should the Germans also demand East Prussia back? Should they fight for Alsace Lorraine again? What about Poland who lost land to the USSR?

 

[Nzoric]

I’m not arguing with any of this. I agree with you. Oslo should have been the end of it, two states finally created. But Arafat wasn’t even willing to negotiate.

Well, it’s probably naive to say the end of it. There would still be problems, but the Palestinians would have had a state.

PLO signed 4 agreements from 93-95. Even accepting a 5 year Israeli transitional government. What implies a lack of negotiation here?


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[U Picciriddu]

Why should they accept it, if euros fels so bad about the plight of jews why not give em a piece of Switzerland

Iirc the idea of Israel didn’t necessarily came from non-Jewish Europeans, but rather from oppressed Jews who lived in Europe; the birth of Zionist movements. During the British-Palestinian mandate Churchill even tried to stop migration towards Palestine/Israel

 

[Post Ironic]

Please share the details of that proposed two state solution. They basically gave the coastline and agricultural land to Israel and left Palestinians in the fckin desert. While placing all major religious grounds under third party governance iirc.


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The North and south coast were Palestine iirc. Which would have been close to half the coastline. I don’t know the geography well enough to know where the agricultural land in Israel is/was. And I believe you are right about religious areas, but that was just Jerusalem and a small surrounding area.

Here’s the map:

 

[Nzoric]

Exactly.

When you lose wars you tend to lose land, should the Germans also demand East Prussia back? Should they fight for Alsace Lorraine again? What about Poland who lost land to the USSR?

Youre talking about specific territories that were lost. Palestinians are a people with No passports, children being born in refugee camps and dying in the very same camps. And you bring up East Prussia


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[Post Ironic]

PLO signed 4 agreements from 93-95. Even accepting a 5 year Israeli transitional government. What implies a lack of negotiation here?


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https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3

Halfway through the conference, apparently on July 18, Clinton had "slowly" - to avoid misunderstanding - read out to Arafat a document, endorsed in advance by Barak, outlining the main points of a future settlement. The proposals included the establishment of a demilitarised Palestinian state on some 92% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip, with some territorial compensation for the Palestinians from pre-1967 Israeli territory; the dismantling of most of the settlements and the concentration of the bulk of the settlers inside the 8% of the West Bank to be annexed by Israel; the establishment of the Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem, in which some Arab neighborhoods would become sovereign Palestinian territory and others would enjoy "functional autonomy"; Palestinian sovereignty over half the Old City of Jerusalem (the Muslim and Christian quarters) and "custodianship," though not sovereignty, over the Temple Mount; a return of refugees to the prospective Palestinian state though with no "right of return" to Israel proper; and the organisation by the international community of a massive aid programme to facilitate the refugees' rehabilitation.
Arafat said no. Enraged, Clinton banged on the table and said: "You are leading your people and the region to a catastrophe." A formal Palestinian rejection of the proposals reached the Americans the next day

Obviously more to the story than just this. And as I said above, I agree with you on a lot of this. What Israel is doing now is never going to solve this. Nor do I think the Israelis have been the so-called “good guys” in any of this history. No one has been. Unfortunately we’re past that now, and pretty match past a real two state solution being a possibility. So I have no idea how this moves forward.

 

[Nzoric]

The North and south coast were Palestine iirc. Which would have been close to half the coastline. I don’t know the geography well enough to know where the agricultural land in Israel is/was. And I believe you are right about religious areas, but that was just Jerusalem and a small surrounding area.

Here’s the map:

Does this map seriously look acceptable to you to appease refugees from someone elses war? Either way, serious mistakes were made by the Palestinians in the run up to 48. El-Husseini was terrible for their cause.


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[BayernFan]

Youre talking about specific territories that were lost. Palestinians are a people with No passports, children being born in refugee camps and dying in the very same camps. And you bring up East Prussia


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Millions of Germans were expelled from their homes in East Prussia at the end of WW2, an area that was German back in time but is now in Russian and Polish hands. You never see the Europeans bring up these matters because they got over it and decided enough is enough.

So should the Israelies and Palestinians.

 

[Nzoric]

Millions of Germans were expelled from their homes in East Prussia at the end of WW2, an area that was German back in time but is now in Russian and Polish hands. You never see the Europeans bring up these matters because they got over it and decided enough is enough.

So should the Israelies and Palestinians.

Please adress my point. Population exchange after losing wars is quite normal. Leaving an entire population stateless is not.


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[BayernFan]

Please adress my point. Population exchange after losing wars is quite normal. Leaving an entire population stateless is not.


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They could have had their state, what prevented them?

They didn't accept the offerings because it was all or nothing.

 

[Nzoric]

They could have had their state, what prevented them?

They didn't accept the offerings because it was all or nothing.

Please adress my point


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[Tomice]

Please share the details of that proposed two state solution. They basically gave the coastline and agricultural land to Israel and left Palestinians in the fckin desert. While placing all major religious grounds under third party governance iirc.


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60-70% of the land proposed for the Jewish state was actuall fricking desert. The Arab state has almost none at all.

You have no knowledge just spweing Palestinian talking points

 

[BayernFan]

Please adress my point


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But I did?

 

[Nzoric]

But I did?

You did not, whatsoever.


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[BayernFan]

You did not, whatsoever.


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Then tell me what you want me to answer.

 

[Nzoric]

Then tell me what you want me to answer.

You made a parallel between germans in east prussia and Palestinians. I explained how its not the same thing. You said a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with my argument.


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[Mohad]

Israeli forces shot their own civilians, kibbutz survivor says


https://electronicintifada.net/cont...eir-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861

 

[Tomice]

Youre talking about specific territories that were lost. Palestinians are a people with No passports, children being born in refugee camps and dying in the very same camps. And you bring up East Prussia


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They were kept statless and are being kept as refugees abecause they have been weponized by the Arab world against Israel.

They are the only people to ever been hereditary refugees in world history.

 

[BayernFan]

You made a parallel between germans in east prussia and Palestinians. I explained how its not the same thing. You said a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with my argument.


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It is not the exact same thing of course, agreed.

But there's similiarities. The Palestinians are a stateless people because their leaders (or lack of), refused the solutions given to them. They could've had their own state many decades ago.