Israeli-Palestinian conflict (2 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
35,297
#41
Look, that's horrible, but it is far from fair to make such a statement. It's not that easy, it's not that black and white.
 
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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,869
#43
Alen, you had three questions in this thread I'll try to answer them from my viewpoint and personal experience and knowledge:

First: Palestinian rockets. Are they the reason for what is happening now in Gaza??

You know, Alen, that people in Gaza has elected Hamas as their representatives before two years. We discussed that thoroughly, I guess, in "Pathetic Democracy" thread. Anyway, after Palestinains chose Hamas, the World tried to ignore the free will of the people trying to keep Abbas (The Palestinian current corrupt president who has been exploiting his position to steal the money of the people) in control. This Abbas tried to cancel the results of elections with the help of Bush, and Israel trying to bring his mercenary followers to authority just to keep gathering money regardless what Palestinian normal people want. He succeeded in that unfortunately in the West Bank, and could imprison each one that said anyhting else than "Forza Abbas and Corruption".

In Gaza, the case was so different. Hamas supporters were much more organized and had good military experience so they could defeat Abbas followers. As a result, we had two Palestinain states. A corrupted one in the West Bank led by Abbas, and a Hamas one in Gaza.

US refused to see Hamas taking control of any land as they knew that it will be something new in the Arab countries to let the Islamists rule (Islamists were prohibited from ruling in many Muslim countries even after they won in elections. For example, in Algeria in 1991). All the Arab regimes tried to oppose Hamas government because they were scared of being infected by the Islamist ruling regime's idea.

So, a very horrible siege was made around Gaza by both Israel and the Arab countries, especially Egyptian president who has a huge Islamist supporters between his people, and consequently has a very big fear of having his country been infected by Hamas model.

Oil, electricity, water, medical equipments, and many essential elements were lost in Gaza during all the two pervious years. As a result, Hamas and other resistance movements decided to use the only weapon they could use. These were nothing but very raw rockets. The people in Gaza saw the rockets as their way to shout for their pain under the siege. It had an emotional impact more than physical one as during two years, no more than 5 Israelis were killed as a result of these rockets.

Before 6 months, Israel decided to stop these rockets from Gaza, so they asked Egypt to tell Hamas they will stop their attacks on Palestinians and stop the siege in lieu of stopping the rockets. The truce started, and rockets were stopped, and mostly the Israeli attacks were stopped, but the siege was not ended, but increased. People in Gaza saw their children and diseased beloved people dying in front of their eyes as a result of blocking them from going out of Gaza strip, so a huge call for not renewing the truce was made there as they are still under occupation and siege, and no logical reason would justify its renewal.

Rockets launching was resumed as a way to say "We refuse to remain under siege for ever", and some Israelis were injured. As a result, Israel decided to end Hamas ruling regime in Gaza with th help of Egypt And bombarded Gaza. Until now, in 24 hours, 282 people were killed and more than 700 were injured. Do you think those rockets justify these attacks? And what do you recommend Palestinians to do instead of launching rockets if you were Palestinian?
 

JUVE_4_Eva

Junior Member
Dec 23, 2008
366
#45
You Know thts the problem... Some are blaming saudi and some are blaming other countries... being divided is not the answer.... UNITY

Only Unity is the solution

PEACE
 
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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,869
#47
The other two questions:

1. What do you guys expect S.Arabia to do, and more importantly...
2. Why do you expect a help from there
?

Let me start by answering the second question:

We were raised since we were so young that all Arabs are brothers. Many reasons were mentioned in the history lessons to justify that brotherhood, like the same language, the same religion, the same enemies.....and many Bla Bla reasons that have nothing to do with logic.

Since the Arab countries (more than 20 countries) had their independence since around fifty years, the same history lessons that we are Arab brothers were fed to people from the Atlantic ocean to the Arab (Persian) gulf. On the land, ruling regimes in most of the countries tried to create some "distinctive features" that could make one Arab country better than the other one, in order to keep praising the great "knight" who rules each one of these jokes of countries. Even some countries had used some stupid slogans to cancel any hope that their inhabitants will feel loyal to people in other Arab countries, for example, Jordan First, UAE first, and many similar things.

As a result, you can find the high level of hatred and racism between the Arab people from any two countries as each one of them was fed by his ruling regime that he has sacrificed alot to make the other Arabs live. I'm here not accusing anybody as I know that Palestinians are not angels too, and do the same thing that other Arabs do.

In the history, Alen, Arabs didn't unite just because they are Arabs except in one battle against Persians before around 1500 years. The battle is called "Thee Qar". All the time they were a group of tribes that used to fight each other because of so silly reasons. When Islam came, it united them under one religion, and they had their glorious centuries just because they were Muslims, and in most of the cases, the ruling regime in the Islamic world was not Arab. For example, Turks have ruled Arab world for a longer period more than the Arabs ruled themselves.

As a result, Arab people may appear to be brothers, but in fact they mostly hate each other and are so prepared to welcome their enemies on their lands instead of cooperating with other people from other Arab countries.

But to be honest, there are some Arabs that are ready to sacrifice many things in order to grant it to other Arabs. Of course, these are so rare, but they are still there.

After this answer to your second question, I think the answer to your first question has become so simple:

What do you guys expect Arab regimes to do??
Absolutely nothing. Just please stop trying to make pressure on people under siege in Gaza to implement the American orders they get on us.
 
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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,869
#48
My last off-topic post .. respect for ReBel ..

just wanted to say this ..

18-20 years ago when i was a 5 year-old child .. when we go to school, we used to have 2 riyals (currency in Saudi Arabia) in our buckets to buy breakfast. we donate 1 riyal to help palestine and we use the other riyal to buy a cheap small piece of cookie for our breakfast .. I even remember some kids even donate everything they got .. there were organized official charities in every school to help collecting donations .. we were donating our money with a big smile on our faces happy to help others .. this is what we were raised for .. helping others ..

I don't understand other arabs when they turn their backs on us !!

with all this hate we saudis suffer from others .. STILL .. still will help, pay money, send shelter and food to Palestine and Lebanon .. Because we're still the same old human-beings who were raised to help others .. we still have the same old values .. even with all this hate ..

I know, Khalid, that there are some great people all over the Arab World that would sacrifice many things to help others. I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia, and I can tell you I saw the two types of people. The majority of Saudis were so kind to us. And the minority who shocked me when I was so young in the first grade accusing me of selling my lands to jews to make use of the land and the money of Saudis. It was really a shock, and I can't forget it ever. Anyway, thank you so much. You know that your great efforts will be awarded and compensated by God enshallah, and that is better than any thanking words from people in this world.
 

Alen

Senior Member
Apr 2, 2007
48,918
#49
I was always taught that part of the Arab culture defines it just to always help out other Arabs, even on a political level. If that is indeed so, it makes sense to call for aid. I don't know much about Slavs and whether they have that sense of being connected, but if they do, you raise a very good point.
No, Slavs don't have such sense of being connected. After the WWII all the Slavs were somehow connected under communism and under the big brother, the USSR.
Slovenians, Croats, Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs and Macedonians lived in one country, they spoke more or less the same language (or exactly the same language as it was the case with croats, serbs, bosnians and montenegrins) and since we were born we were thaught of brotherhood and unity, we were thaught how we're all Slavs, the same people, who must help and take care of eachother.
From this forum, i, xcen3x and Marko can confirm this since we all spent our elementary school years learning these things.

But we all know how everything ended and that's exactly why i asked my question. Isn't it too naive to expect someone else from the outside, even though he's an Arab and he's been taught to help the other Arabs, to leave everything he has and to give everything to the other Arabs that need help. Ego comes before altruism, and that's why juve_rev's reaction surprised me.
As a result, you can find the high level of hatred and racism between the Arab people from any two countries as each one of them was fed by his ruling regime that he has sacrificed alot to make the other Arabs live. I'm here not accusing anybody as I know that Palestinians are not angels too, and do the same thing that other Arabs do.



As a result, Arab people may appear to be brothers, but in fact they mostly hate each other and are so prepared to welcome their enemies on their lands instead of cooperating with other people from other Arab countries.
Thanks for all the answers Reb.
I was aware of all the things you said in your answer (except for the parts i quoted). The Saudi help is expected because they're also Arabs and because of their culture (in this case, they are taught to help the other Arabs).
But the history of your people and the example i gave about the Slavs tells us how naive it is to expect all those things.
Although very discouraging, your answer to the third question is the closest to reality and the closest to what you should really expect in this case.
 
Jan 7, 2004
29,704
#50
Fuck the arabs! Those fucking Saudis should fucking burn in hell. You have people in Saudi Arabia that are willing to spend millions of dollars to send their Aston Martin to Europe and get it checked, they aren't willing to lift a fucking finger to help their own fucking people. Fuck Israel, Fuck the Arabs, may god be with the Palestinians.

you act like there is something wrong with that. that kind of sentiment is what got you into this mess in the first place.
 
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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,869
#53
the one where people are killing people in the name of some sense of nationalism and religious affiliation. people are such suckers for acceptance.
Do you think that the Middle East conflict is just resulting from "nationalism and religious affiliation"??
 

Azzurri7

Pinturicchio
Moderator
Dec 16, 2003
72,638
#55
J-Rev was overreacting, it is not completely the Saudis' fault...all Arab countries are to blame for the lack of cohesion and uniformity, and lack of action towards Israel...each has their own agenda and are not looking at the bigger picture...

and Azzurri7, how much more can Iran do if the Arabs themselves will not stand up to the Israelis...they support Hezbollah and Hamas, meanwhile they are also trying to develop their nuclear program...you cannot expect them to do everything for the Palestinians, the rest of the Arab nations have to pull their weight...
I don't care about their nuclear program. But when they threaten that they will interfere each time Gazza is striked then they're turning themselves(Ahmadi Najjad) into a joke and clown at the same time.

Arabs never said they will do this or that to Israeli's thats obvious. I just don't like when someone pretends he's strong and in reality he's worth onion.
 

Azzurri7

Pinturicchio
Moderator
Dec 16, 2003
72,638
#56
Oh and as much as I feel and share the pain Palestinians are passing through in Gazza... I feel like the Palestinians in Lebanon should chill the fuck out and return back to their places.

We already have too many issues and problems here. I don't want another Palestinian Israeli dilemma starting in Lebanon.
 
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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,869
#57
it is fueled by that. that's how they indoctrinate new blood. i am not that stupid to think that the decision-makers are guided by anything other that power and money
You're so far away from the truth, Bes. I think it is enough to say that because I think we had this conversation before.

Oh and as much as I feel and share the pain Palestinians are passing through in Gazza... I feel like the Palestinians in Lebanon should chill the fuck out and return back to their places.

We already have too many issues and problems here. I don't want another Palestinian Israeli dilemma starting in Lebanon.
What are they doing?? And what can they do?? Isn't the whole border guarded by Hezbollah??
 

Azzurri7

Pinturicchio
Moderator
Dec 16, 2003
72,638
#58
You're so far away from the truth, Bes. I think it is enough to say that because I think we had this conversation before.



What are they doing?? And what can they do?? Isn't the whole border guarded by Hezbollah??
Not borders, they're trying to block some roads in Beirut, attacking the Egyptian Embassy and probably the US.

If things continue like this they might clash with the Lebanese Army.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
35,297
#60
You know, for all the Arab bullshit I hear every goddamn day, I have to admit that one can at least argue with Israelis. They seem to be rational. Sure, we all disagree with what they're doing, but you guys don't reason. It's all just emotion. That's why Israel is so strong to begin with.
 

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