Islam and the West: An Outsider's Perspective (1 Viewer)

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Layce Erayce

Senior Member
Aug 11, 2002
9,116
#1
Recently, someone live-tweeting local reports of a terror attack in Bangladesh. It was yet another tragedy, one of many. It has no doubt raised the usual questions: about ISIS, extremism, and the role of Islam.

The role of Islam is difficult to talk about for at least two reasons:

1) Many Muslims have nothing to do with these acts, and vehemently repudiate them. These Muslims, innocent though they are, are often unfairly held responsible. Muslims are castigated as a group for the acts of a few bad apples.

2) Also, it's deeply uncomfortable to face the appearance of cognitive dissonance of two dearly-held issues. Our religious convictions are some of our most intense and deeply-held. And the world we live in, our communities, workplaces, recreation, culture, and non-religious values permeate every area of our lives. The slightest appearance of a conflict between these two features of a Muslim's life can be difficult to grapple with.

As an outsider looking in, I want to ask other Muslims about this: Does this tension exist for you? Do you feel comfortable discussing it? What is the best way to approach this question for an outsider?
 

Juventino[RUS]

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2006
25,642
#2
Recently, someone live-tweeting local reports of a terror attack in Bangladesh. It was yet another tragedy, one of many. It has no doubt raised the usual questions: about ISIS, extremism, and the role of Islam.

The role of Islam is difficult to talk about for at least two reasons:

1) Many Muslims have nothing to do with these acts, and vehemently repudiate them. These Muslims, innocent though they are, are often unfairly held responsible. Muslims are castigated as a group for the acts of a few bad apples.

2) Also, it's deeply uncomfortable to face the appearance of cognitive dissonance of two dearly-held issues. Our religious convictions are some of our most intense and deeply-held. And the world we live in, our communities, workplaces, recreation, culture, and non-religious values permeate every area of our lives. The slightest appearance of a conflict between these two features of a Muslim's life can be difficult to grapple with.

As an outsider looking in, I want to ask other Muslims about this: Does this tension exist for you? Do you feel comfortable discussing it? What is the best way to approach this question for an outsider?
@Seven will explain to you that closed muslim districts (where any other people are not welcomed) in Belgium are very good for his country
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
35,664
#3
Juventino[RUS];5308172 said:
@Seven will explain to you that closed muslim districts (where any other people are not welcomed) in Belgium are very good for his country
This guy :lol:

He thinks I'm the defender of Islam :lol:

@Fred @Zé Tahir

Rus, there are no closed muslim districts in Belgium. The closest thing to a ghetto would be the Jewish neighbourhood in Antwerp.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
35,664
#5
Juventino[RUS];5308192 said:
And now you step back after events in Bruxelles :lol: holy fuck :rofl:
I'm not stepping back. I never said closed muslim districts would be a good thing. In fact I've always explicitly told you there are no closed muslim districts. I don't understand where you get this idea from. I've always recognized the inherent dangers of muslim extremism as well. I have however refused to condemn a significant part of the Belgian population. Muslims who have grown up in Belgium, muslims who were born here.

I don't understand what it is you think we should do. Burn them? Tell me. What should we do?
 

Juventino[RUS]

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2006
25,642
#6
I'm not stepping back. I never said closed muslim districts would be a good thing. In fact I've always explicitly told you there are no closed muslim districts. I don't understand where you get this idea from. I've always recognized the inherent dangers of muslim extremism as well. I have however refused to condemn a significant part of the Belgian population. Muslims who have grown up in Belgium, muslims who were born here.

I don't understand what it is you think we should do. Burn them? Tell me. What should we do?
No ghettos in Belgium? :lol: Damn how to find that thread with all your bullshit in it :lol: I said in that thread that there is only one way - assimilation, you don't want to live your life here by our rules? Then the plan is pretty simple - ticket, airport, your lovely motherland and no way back, we don't need you here, you need us, bye-bye. Cunts who blew up the airport in Brussels were born and raised in Belgium, their families had/have stable business, Belgium as a country gave them everything that you can only dream about as immigrant or as child of immigrants, yet they've decided to blew up innocent people because someone from their closed community told them to do it, it's undeniable that Belgium nowadays is a breeding ground for terrorists , especially Molenbeek, or I'd say the Islamic state of Molenbeek, for Islamists imams districts like Molenbeek are like gods gift because for 99.9% you will find some lost souls there, you will easily brainwash them that they have to die in the name of God, religion and to get revenge for everything that Europeans done to Middle East. What about that woman mayor of Molenbeek? Bitch had a list of 80 terror suspects names from her town and what she did with this information? Exactly, NOTHING :lol: now let's compare Belgium to United States - they have around 3m of Muslims immigrants there, why they never committed a terrostic attack on the American soil? Two words - assimilation and integration, this is what European governments fail to reproduce in their countries, there are no Muslim ghettos in America (from what I know) and it's a key factor

Ps Tsornaev brothers were brainwashed here, in Russia, when they've paid a visit to Dagestan and FSB warned FBI but they didn't listen
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
35,664
#7
Juventino[RUS];5308206 said:
No ghettos in Belgium? :lol: Damn how to find that thread with all your bullshit in it :lol: I said in that thread that there is only one way - assimilation, you don't want to live your life here by our rules? Then the plan is pretty simple - ticket, airport, your lovely motherland and no way back, we don't need you here, you need us, bye-bye. Cunts who blew up the airport in Brussels were born and raised in Belgium, their families had/have stable business, Belgium as a country gave them everything that you can only dream about as immigrant or as child of immigrants, yet they've decided to blew up innocent people because someone from their closed community told them to do it, it's undeniable that Belgium nowadays is a breeding ground for terrorists , especially Molenbeek, or I'd say the Islamic state of Molenbeek, for Islamists imams districts like Molenbeek are like gods gift because for 99.9% you will find some lost souls there, you will easily brainwash them that they have to die in the name of God, religion and to get revenge for everything that Europeans done to Middle East. What about that woman mayor of Molenbeek? Bitch had a list of 80 terror suspects names and what she did with this information? Exactly, NOTHING :lol: now let's compare Belgium to United States - they have around 3m of Muslims immigrants there, why they never committed a terrostic attack on the American soil? Two words - assimilation and integration, this is what European governments fail to reproduce in their countries, there are no Muslim ghettos in America (from what I know) and it's a key factor

Boston Marathon Bombing. Both Tsarnaev brothers were muslim immigrants who were responsible for a terrorist attack on American soil. So yeah, you're like 100% verifiably wrong. And this is an attack that happened three years ago and was in the news for months. Damn you're ignorant.

Also, again, there is no muslim ghetto in Belgium. There are a lot of immigrants in Molenbeek and it's a difficult community, but it isn't all muslim. Far from. You are regurgitating 'news' you picked up from very sketchy sources. Or at least I assume that's where you got these wild and completely unfounded ideas from.
 

Juventino[RUS]

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2006
25,642
#8
Boston Marathon Bombing. Both Tsarnaev brothers were muslim immigrants who were responsible for a terrorist attack on American soil. So yeah, you're like 100% verifiably wrong. And this is an attack that happened three years ago and was in the news for months. Damn you're ignorant.

Also, again, there is no muslim ghetto in Belgium. There are a lot of immigrants in Molenbeek and it's a difficult community, but it isn't all muslim. Far from. You are regurgitating 'news' you picked up from very sketchy sources. Or at least I assume that's where you got these wild and completely unfounded ideas from.
Growing numbers of Belgian Muslims live in isolated ghettos where poverty, unemployment and crime are rampant. In Molenbeek, the unemployment rate hovers at around 40%. Radical imams aggressively canvass in search of shiftless youths to wage jihad against the West.

"When we have to contact these people [European officials] or send our guys over to talk to them, we're essentially talking with people who are... children. These are not pro-active, they don't know what's going on. They're in such denial. It's such a frightening thing to admit their country is being taken over." — American intelligence official.

"Returned Syria fighters are a huge threat... It is absolutely unbelievable that our governments allow them to return... Every government in the West, which refuses to do so [lock them up], is a moral accessory if one of these monsters commits an atrocity. ... Our citizens are in mortal danger if we do not restore control over our own national borders." — Dutch MP Geert Wilders.


Growing numbers of Belgian Muslims live in marginal districts — isolated ghettos where poverty, unemployment and crime are rampant. In Molenbeek, the unemployment rate hovers at around 40%. Radical imams aggressively canvass the area in search of shiftless youths to wage jihad against the West.


One of the smallest countries in Western Europe, Belgium has become Europe's biggest per capita source of jihadists fighting in Syria and Iraq. According to data provided by Interior Minister Jan Jambon on February 22, 2016, 451 Belgian citizens have been identified as jihadists. Of these, 269 are on the battlefields in Syria or Iraq; 6 are believed currently to be on their way to the war zone; 117 have returned to Belgium; and 59 attempted to leave but were stopped at the border.

After the Paris attacks in November 2015, Belgian Prime Minister Charles Michel said: "There is almost always a link with Molenbeek. That's a gigantic problem. Apart from prevention, we should also focus more on repression."

Interior Minister Jambon added:

"We don't have control of the situation in Molenbeek at present. We have to step up efforts there as a next task. I see that [Molenbeek] Mayor Françoise Schepmans is also asking our help, and that the local police chief is willing to cooperate. We should join forces and 'clean up' the last bit that needs to be done, that is really necessary."

We all wrong, Seven is right :lol:

I left ps about Tsornaev brothers, they were turned into radicals in Russia, not in the states and it's a well known fact

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.gq.com/story/molenbeek-europes-terrorism-capital
Molenbeek: Europe's Terrorism Capital

- - - Updated - - -

Molenbeek, nonetheless, occupies a unique place in European jihadism. Almost invariably when an Islamist atrocity takes place on the continent, attention turns to the district on the north-western fringes of Brussels’ city centre. From the post 9/11 assassination in Afghanistan of Ahmad Shah Massoud, the anti-Taliban leader and the 2004 Madrid train bombings, to last year’s killings at Brussels’ Jewish museum and this summer’s foiled shooting spree on a high-speed Amsterdam-Paris train, investigators’ lines of inquiry lead to Molenbeek.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-borough-in-the-spotlight-after-paris-attacks
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
3,888
#9
I'm not stepping back. I never said closed muslim districts would be a good thing. In fact I've always explicitly told you there are no closed muslim districts. I don't understand where you get this idea from. I've always recognized the inherent dangers of muslim extremism as well. I have however refused to condemn a significant part of the Belgian population. Muslims who have grown up in Belgium, muslims who were born here.

I don't understand what it is you think we should do. Burn them? Tell me. What should we do?
The question is who do you consider to be extremists? Only the terrorists? What about those who help hide terrorists? Those who preach violence and recruit terrorists? What about those who claim that terrorism is justified even if they are not terrorists themselves? And what about those who believe Sharia law should be imposed in the west (and everywhere) and should apply to non-Muslims as well?

I consider all of those extreme, although not to the same degree. And if you check the opinion polls, more than 50% of the Muslims in western Europe fall in these categories.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
35,664
#11
Juventino[RUS];5308216 said:
Growing numbers of Belgian Muslims live in isolated ghettos where poverty, unemployment and crime are rampant. In Molenbeek, the unemployment rate hovers at around 40%. Radical imams aggressively canvass in search of shiftless youths to wage jihad against the West.

"When we have to contact these people [European officials] or send our guys over to talk to them, we're essentially talking with people who are... children. These are not pro-active, they don't know what's going on. They're in such denial. It's such a frightening thing to admit their country is being taken over." — American intelligence official.

"Returned Syria fighters are a huge threat... It is absolutely unbelievable that our governments allow them to return... Every government in the West, which refuses to do so [lock them up], is a moral accessory if one of these monsters commits an atrocity. ... Our citizens are in mortal danger if we do not restore control over our own national borders." — Dutch MP Geert Wilders.


Growing numbers of Belgian Muslims live in marginal districts — isolated ghettos where poverty, unemployment and crime are rampant. In Molenbeek, the unemployment rate hovers at around 40%. Radical imams aggressively canvass the area in search of shiftless youths to wage jihad against the West.


One of the smallest countries in Western Europe, Belgium has become Europe's biggest per capita source of jihadists fighting in Syria and Iraq. According to data provided by Interior Minister Jan Jambon on February 22, 2016, 451 Belgian citizens have been identified as jihadists. Of these, 269 are on the battlefields in Syria or Iraq; 6 are believed currently to be on their way to the war zone; 117 have returned to Belgium; and 59 attempted to leave but were stopped at the border.

After the Paris attacks in November 2015, Belgian Prime Minister Charles Michel said: "There is almost always a link with Molenbeek. That's a gigantic problem. Apart from prevention, we should also focus more on repression."

Interior Minister Jambon added:

"We don't have control of the situation in Molenbeek at present. We have to step up efforts there as a next task. I see that [Molenbeek] Mayor Françoise Schepmans is also asking our help, and that the local police chief is willing to cooperate. We should join forces and 'clean up' the last bit that needs to be done, that is really necessary."

We all wrong, Seven is right

I left ps about Tsornaev brothers, they were turned into radicals in Russia, not in the states and it's a well known fact

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.gq.com/story/molenbeek-europes-terrorism-capital
Molenbeek: Europe's Terrorism Capital

- - - Updated - - -

Molenbeek, nonetheless, occupies a unique place in European jihadism. Almost invariably when an Islamist atrocity takes place on the continent, attention turns to the district on the north-western fringes of Brussels’ city centre. From the post 9/11 assassination in Afghanistan of Ahmad Shah Massoud, the anti-Taliban leader and the 2004 Madrid train bombings, to last year’s killings at Brussels’ Jewish museum and this summer’s foiled shooting spree on a high-speed Amsterdam-Paris train, investigators’ lines of inquiry lead to Molenbeek.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-borough-in-the-spotlight-after-paris-attacks
Your sources are:
- an American intelligence dude who has every interest in fear mongering and blaming other nations;
- right wing extremist Wilders, widely ridiculed by now;
- Jambon, again right wing and considered an idiot by most.

Also, you said no muslim immigrants conspired to a terrorist attack in the states. Clearly they did, three years ago in Boston. You try to solve this by saying they radicalized in Russia, but one of the brothers was 8 when he emigrated.

Finally, I live in Belgium. Belgium is a pretty small place. If there was a muslim ghetto, I'd know.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
35,664
#12
The question is who do you consider to be extremists? Only the terrorists? What about those who help hide terrorists? Those who preach violence and recruit terrorists? What about those who claim that terrorism is justified even if they are not terrorists themselves? And what about those who believe Sharia law should be imposed in the west (and everywhere) and should apply to non-Muslims as well?

I consider all of those extreme, although not to the same degree. And if you check the opinion polls, more than 50% of the Muslims in western Europe fall in these categories.
I consider the Hasidic Jews of Antwerp to be extreme.
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
3,888
#13
I consider the Hasidic Jews of Antwerp to be extreme.
So you don't consider any of the groups I described to be extreme, but you consider the Hasidic Jews to be, who are very religious, but also harmless compared to radical Muslims. I am not surprised, considering your history on this forum as a terrorist apologist and anti-Semite.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
35,664
#14
So you don't consider any of the groups I described to be extreme, but you consider the Hasidic Jews to be, who are very religious, but also harmless compared to radical Muslims. I am not surprised, considering your history on this forum as a terrorist apologist and anti-Semite.
Oh look. Anti-semite. That took the Jew a long time to say.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
35,664
#16
You give good arguments, sir.
Your post really didn't deserve a proper response my friend. We've been over insurances before and back then I already came to the realization that unfortunately you just don't get certain things. A lifetime of indoctrination can do that to a person. But it seems silly to engage with you, because you will just keep missing the point.
 
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