sorry for jumping in the convo but i couldn't help myself.
I am a believer but the analogy is totally not accurate.
In both Christian and Islamic philosophy you will find intellectuals and philosophers who claim there is no relation between faith and reason, and philosophers who will claim there is a strong relation.
Let me take this piece by piece.
1) Those who believe there is no relation between faith and reason:
They will clearly see the analogy made between the stock and religion as absurd as the stock market is based on material real causes and effects that can be known and studied and understood if pursued. On the other hand they will say that the causes and effects about the Godly order dramatically differs from one religion to another and hence cannot be understood or tested etc.
2) Those who do believe in the relation between faith and reason:
Examples of these will be Thomas Aquinas for Christians and Averroes (Ibn Rushd) AKA The Commentator for Muslims.
They will not claim that religion is based completely on reason but they will say that the many major aspects of religion can be found by the practicing of reasoning without the need of scripture.
They both are Aristotelian and they both are the greatest philosophers of their respective religions and if you read their books you will find that they more or less say same thing about faith and reason.
Using reason alone, they both arrived at the existence of God (i can supply their main proof) and that he must be all perfect, one and omnipotent.
See any of the 3 major religions is divided in to 2 parts.
------------------------
1) Gray Area
(must be accepted on faith from the authority of scripture (be it bible or Quran)
as it is impossible to judge in matters you can neither know nor understand as will be evident from the examples i will give.
Includes:
A) For Christians: The Trinity, crucifixion, resurrection,Miracles etc..
B) For Muslims: The None existence of the Trinity, The other story about the crucifixion, Miracles, Djin, Magic, Curses, corruption of the bible, judgment day etc..
Note: They try to use reason to explain these matters but they all admit that their description is never absolutely accurate as it is by definition unexplainable.
------------------------
2) Reasonable area
(can be known through philosophy ie. the use of the intellect without the need of resorting to scripture)
Includes:
The build up to God's existence etc. (Many philosophers who knew nothing about scripture arrived at God's existence)
Ethics etc.
This Part is more or less common to Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.
-------------------------
Now ask yourselves this:
Can you judge if Jesus was Crucified or not?
Can you say based on facts that he resurrected to the sky or not?
Can you prove That He is not God?
Can you Prove that any of the miracles in different scripture ever happened?
Can you know for sure if there was an angel called Gabriel who dictated scripture from God to the prophets or was it the holy spirit (a part of god)? Can we even say it exists or not?
These are all what we call the 3'aybeyat in Islam meaning Absences meaning they are abstract and cannot be proven to be true or false.. you just have to take them on faith in the authority of scripture NOT reason.
Then ask yourself this...
What makes me believe The Quran and not the Bible?
What makes you believe the Bible not the Quran?
They both agree in many things but also disagree at many.
Followers of the bible condemn followers of the Quran to hell and vice versa.
How can We be judged on a choice of our religion when both religions have a grey area that cannot be reasoned and each claims to be true and condemns the other to hell. We take their words on authority.. but whose authority? on books' authority (Quran and bible) but which book?
The 3'aybeyat (absences) by definition cannot be known for sure how can God condemn me to hell by choosing a side rather than the other when there is no reason i could judge upon to choose one over the other.
This is like putting a 10 year old kid in an advanced physics exam.
The exam is only 1 question and he has 2 answers to choose from. Some tell the kid to choose answer A and others tell him to choose answer B.
He asks: "why would i choose this and not that"
their answer is "You must choose based on our authority"
he asks: why would i trust your authority and not the other"
the answer is "because if you trust the wrong group you will fail the exam"
the kid asks "how can i know which answer is true i don't know physics"
They answer "follow your heart"
Lol we can be thrown in eternal fire because our heart made the wrong choice. A matter of luck a Russian roulette game where either you go to HEAVEN or HELL.
Anyway, i had to say this to make you understand the back ground i am speaking from.
returning to our topic, according to these people too (those who believe there is a connection between faith and reason) the analogy is weak as when you are talking stock, you can understand the factors influencing it if you wish to find out.. you can become an analyst yourself. On the other hand, The gray area in religions(which is the difference between the religions lol) cannot be known except based on scripture's authority as i've shown. if you wish to go beyond the scripture's authority you have to be dead and see for yourself (you cant be the stock analyst here) .. Not even the POPE knows exactly what the gray area is.
i hope you got my point.
I am a believer but the analogy is totally not accurate.
In both Christian and Islamic philosophy you will find intellectuals and philosophers who claim there is no relation between faith and reason, and philosophers who will claim there is a strong relation.
Let me take this piece by piece.
1) Those who believe there is no relation between faith and reason:
They will clearly see the analogy made between the stock and religion as absurd as the stock market is based on material real causes and effects that can be known and studied and understood if pursued. On the other hand they will say that the causes and effects about the Godly order dramatically differs from one religion to another and hence cannot be understood or tested etc.
2) Those who do believe in the relation between faith and reason:
Examples of these will be Thomas Aquinas for Christians and Averroes (Ibn Rushd) AKA The Commentator for Muslims.
They will not claim that religion is based completely on reason but they will say that the many major aspects of religion can be found by the practicing of reasoning without the need of scripture.
They both are Aristotelian and they both are the greatest philosophers of their respective religions and if you read their books you will find that they more or less say same thing about faith and reason.
Using reason alone, they both arrived at the existence of God (i can supply their main proof) and that he must be all perfect, one and omnipotent.
See any of the 3 major religions is divided in to 2 parts.
------------------------
1) Gray Area
(must be accepted on faith from the authority of scripture (be it bible or Quran)
as it is impossible to judge in matters you can neither know nor understand as will be evident from the examples i will give.
Includes:
A) For Christians: The Trinity, crucifixion, resurrection,Miracles etc..
B) For Muslims: The None existence of the Trinity, The other story about the crucifixion, Miracles, Djin, Magic, Curses, corruption of the bible, judgment day etc..
Note: They try to use reason to explain these matters but they all admit that their description is never absolutely accurate as it is by definition unexplainable.
------------------------
2) Reasonable area
(can be known through philosophy ie. the use of the intellect without the need of resorting to scripture)
Includes:
The build up to God's existence etc. (Many philosophers who knew nothing about scripture arrived at God's existence)
Ethics etc.
This Part is more or less common to Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.
-------------------------
Now ask yourselves this:
Can you judge if Jesus was Crucified or not?
Can you say based on facts that he resurrected to the sky or not?
Can you prove That He is not God?
Can you Prove that any of the miracles in different scripture ever happened?
Can you know for sure if there was an angel called Gabriel who dictated scripture from God to the prophets or was it the holy spirit (a part of god)? Can we even say it exists or not?
These are all what we call the 3'aybeyat in Islam meaning Absences meaning they are abstract and cannot be proven to be true or false.. you just have to take them on faith in the authority of scripture NOT reason.
Then ask yourself this...
What makes me believe The Quran and not the Bible?
What makes you believe the Bible not the Quran?
They both agree in many things but also disagree at many.
Followers of the bible condemn followers of the Quran to hell and vice versa.
How can We be judged on a choice of our religion when both religions have a grey area that cannot be reasoned and each claims to be true and condemns the other to hell. We take their words on authority.. but whose authority? on books' authority (Quran and bible) but which book?
The 3'aybeyat (absences) by definition cannot be known for sure how can God condemn me to hell by choosing a side rather than the other when there is no reason i could judge upon to choose one over the other.
This is like putting a 10 year old kid in an advanced physics exam.
The exam is only 1 question and he has 2 answers to choose from. Some tell the kid to choose answer A and others tell him to choose answer B.
He asks: "why would i choose this and not that"
their answer is "You must choose based on our authority"
he asks: why would i trust your authority and not the other"
the answer is "because if you trust the wrong group you will fail the exam"
the kid asks "how can i know which answer is true i don't know physics"
They answer "follow your heart"
Lol we can be thrown in eternal fire because our heart made the wrong choice. A matter of luck a Russian roulette game where either you go to HEAVEN or HELL.
Anyway, i had to say this to make you understand the back ground i am speaking from.
returning to our topic, according to these people too (those who believe there is a connection between faith and reason) the analogy is weak as when you are talking stock, you can understand the factors influencing it if you wish to find out.. you can become an analyst yourself. On the other hand, The gray area in religions(which is the difference between the religions lol) cannot be known except based on scripture's authority as i've shown. if you wish to go beyond the scripture's authority you have to be dead and see for yourself (you cant be the stock analyst here) .. Not even the POPE knows exactly what the gray area is.
i hope you got my point.
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