euthanasia (13 Viewers)

[Slagathor]

Amsterdam, Netherlands - In a nation where the vast majority of people consider themselves to be atheist and believe only in the right to dignity and the freedom of choice, a law on euthanasia was inevitable and it entered into force in the latter stages of the twentieth century. Now in effect for some years, the first investigations into its functioning are set up to start.

Recent investigations have shown that many doctors in the Netherlands are reluctant to carry out requests for euthanasia, feeling it stands directly opposite the essence of their duty: saving people from illness. Statistics show that of all requests to euthanasia, 60% is declined by doctors, more often in the second than in the first stage of the process of request. The patient's home doctor will often sympathise with the patient and give his blessing (be it with a soar heart), but the second, independent, doctor who must also agree more often declines based on cold facts regarding the patient's illness.

An obligatory waiting period written down in the law is the second buffer in the process as often, a request to euthanasia is directly related to a state of depression that fades with time. Eighty-nine year old Mrs Van de Winkel, for example, changed her mind after a week and told her doctor: "Thank you for waiting, I do feel better now."

Mental suffering is not regarded as a valid reason to ask for euthanasia, only physical suffering without an end is. But "physical suffering" is a loose term and everybody gives his or her own interpretation to it. Such as Mr Rozendaal, diagnosed with a braintumor, who just filed his request for euthanasia: "I have lived my life in dignity, I shall die in dignity. I will not wait for the tumor to slowly eat up my brain, my being, to the point where my family will have to feed and dress me."

"Request granted", the form reads. The end for Mr Rozendaal has come. Reassuring words from the doctor: "The journey you are about to take is unknown to medical science but I believe many good things will come to you from this point onwards."

We are asked to leave the room where Mr Rozendaal, his wife, and their doctor will carry out the procedure. We wait on the other side of the closed and spotless, white hospital door until the rhythmic beep on the other side stops.

Article taken from Dutch daily newspaper "Algemeen Dagblad"
Translation: Erik

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Any views on the matter? Where do you stand on euthanasia?

 

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[Lawnchair Bes]

too me it looks like there is a lot of room for abuse on euthanasia

 

[Tom]

Imo, if someone wants to die, nobody should stop them, especially not at the taxpayers expense. Which is why I am absolutely flabbergasted that they try to save "victims" of attempted suicides.

 

[swag]

Politics on this issue aside, I can imagine only the most Kafka-esque of novel plotlines dealing with a society so repressive that the government won't even let you kill yourself to let yourself out of your misery.

 

[Elnur_E65]

I would certainly love to die if I was in that condition...

 

[K10]

I'm for euthanasia. Makes no sense living if the only thing one can do is feel pain.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

I think its wrong, but if someone wants to die its their choice. I just think you shouldnt involve other people in the process.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
Imo, if someone wants to die, nobody should stop them, especially not at the taxpayers expense. Which is why I am absolutely flabbergasted that they try to save "victims" of attempted suicides.

There's the argument that suicidal urges are often temporary Tom, hence the Dutch waiting period. Depression can last a long time, though I've met people who've overcome it even in the face of continuing physical pain. I have to admit, on this issue, I lean more towards the Dutch point of view though. I don't feel that society has any right to tell someone that they can't die.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Death will eventually come anyway. Life is not given to us by our choice so why should we decide when we should die? It's a natural process, why not just let nature take its course? To hell with physical suffering, its a subjective term in the first place and people go through it all the time. It's part of life, deal with it. No matter how badly you suffer physically as long as you're not in those extreme cases of life support etc you should continue living. It's physical excruciating pain yeah but people always overlook the power of such experiences on the patient and their family.. you learn a lot from these experiences. You shouldnt give up on life easily no matter how helpless your case seem to be. Or else you'll just be a coward.

 

[Tom]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++


There's the argument that suicidal urges are often temporary Tom, hence the Dutch waiting period. Depression can last a long time, though I've met people who've overcome it even in the face of continuing physical pain. I have to admit, on this issue, I lean more towards the Dutch point of view though. I don't feel that society has any right to tell someone that they can't die.

Yeah you're right on the whole "temporary" thing, but at the end of the day if someone commits suicide under a temporary urge I firmly believe its the individual's choice and is certainly not society's responsibility to prevent. Personally I don't think I could ever reach a state so low I'd consider killing myself so perhaps I'm not really in a position to sympathise but at the end of the day life is a gift, suicides are a very selfish and inconsiderate act, such people are probably better off dead.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
Yeah you're right on the whole "temporary" thing, but at the end of the day if someone commits suicide under a temporary urge I firmly believe its the individual's choice and is certainly not society's responsibility to prevent.

Depends on what depression really is. If you consider it a mental illness, and suicidal urges to be a sympton, then it's society's duty to try to help those people. Help could involve medicine or an overdose of morphine, I don't know.

Personally I don't think I could ever reach a state so low I'd consider killing myself so perhaps I'm not really in a position to sympathise but at the end of the day life is a gift, suicides are a very selfish and inconsiderate act, such people are probably better off dead.

I understand that viewpoint; I can't place myself in that situation either. I'm not sure I can condemn all suicides though. Sure, a lot, maybe most, cases are very selfish, but some people feel not just miserable, but hate themselves for being a weight on their family's shoulders. They don't want to be that person any more. Maybe that's okay.

 

[adams]

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
Imo, if someone wants to die, nobody should stop them, especially not at the taxpayers expense. Which is why I am absolutely flabbergasted that they try to save "victims" of attempted suicides.

Most people who attempt suicide are disturbed. The cause of their suicide isnt their external problems- what they put in their suicide notes.

Their problem is psychological. And their inability to get this psychological ailment treated results in them eventually attempting suicide. If successful, its sad.

A friend of mine attempted suicide when she was younger. She was suffering from severe anxiety and depression. Now she takes medication, went to counselors and now, six years later she's doing great. She's back from college now, and her life couldnt be better. When she looks back, what do you think she feels about her attempt?

 

[HelterSkelter]

i did a report on it for someone a little while back.i dont know if this topic has been discussed over here or not.but what do you people feel about the subject?i personally think its sick,but i wanted to know what you people think.

btw,who here apart from me spelled it 'youthanasia' for the longest time courtesy of megadeth?

 

[Slagathor]

Been a while since I looked into this, but the Dutch situation is (from what I gather) still pretty much the same as it was several years ago. I support it:

In the Netherlands the Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide (Review Procedures) Act took effect on April 1, 2002. It legalizes euthanasia and physician assistance in dying in certain circumstances.

The law recognized a practice that had been tolerated for some 20 years. From the time that euthanasia first came to be widely practiced in the Netherlands, it was formally subject to review by boards of doctors in each hospital. The law essentially codified what had already become tolerated practice and unofficial law by judgments in the courts.

The law permits euthanasia and physician assisted dying when each of the following conditions is fulfilled:

• the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement
• the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request can not be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs)
• the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects and options
• there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above
• the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, in which case the doctor must be present.
• the patient is at least 12 years old (patients between 12 and 16 years of age require the consent of their parents)

The doctor must also report the cause of death to the municipal coroner in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Burial and Cremation Act. A regional review committee assesses whether a case of termination of life on request or assisted suicide complies with the due care criteria. Depending on its findings, the case will either be closed or brought to the attention of the Public Prosecutor. Finally, the legislation offers an explicit recognition of the validity of a written declaration of will of the patient regarding euthanasia (a "euthanasia directive"). Such declarations can be used when a patient is in a coma or otherwise unable to state whether they want euthanasia or not.

The legislation has wide support among the socially libertarian Dutch, who have one of the world's highest life expectancies. There is however persistent opposition, mainly organized by the churches.

Euthanasia remains a criminal offense in cases not meeting the law's specific conditions, with the exception of several situations that are not subject to the restrictions of the law at all, because they are considered normal medical practice:

• stopping or not starting a medically useless (futile) treatment
• stopping or not starting a treatment at the patient's request
• speeding up death as a side-effect of treatment necessary for alleviating serious suffering

Euthanasia of children under the age of 12 remains technically illegal, however Dr. Eduard Verhagen has documented several cases and, together with colleagues and prosecutors, has developed a protocol to be followed in those cases. Prosecutors will refrain from pressing charges if this Groningen protocol is followed.

In 1992 a proposal was made known as Drion's Pill. This fictional drug would be a set of 2 pills. The first pill could be taken without any harm, the second pill would have to be taken a couple of days later (and only then would work). This would give the patient the time to think things over. The drug was never developed, the proposal however indirectly started up the discussion of euthanasia in Netherlands.

In 2003, in the Netherlands, 1626 cases were officially reported of euthanasia in the sense of a physician assisting the death (1.2% of all deaths). Usually the sedative sodium thiopental is intravenously administered to induce a coma. Once it is certain that the patient is in a deep coma, typically after some minutes, a muscle relaxant is administered to stop the breathing and cause death.

Officially reported were also 148 cases of physician assisted dying (0.14% of all deaths), usually by drinking a strong (10g) barbiturate potion. The doctor is required to be present for two reasons:

• to make sure the potion is not taken by a different person, by accident (or, theoretically, for "unauthorized" suicide or perhaps even murder)
• to monitor the process and be available to apply the combined procedure mentioned below, if necessary.

In two cases the doctor was reprimanded for not being present while the patient drank the potion. They said they had not realized that this was required.

Forty-one cases were reported to combine the two procedures: usually in these cases the patient drinks the potion, but this does not cause death. After a few hours, or earlier in the case of vomiting, the muscle relaxant is administered to cause death.

By far, most reported cases concerned cancer patients. Also, in most cases the procedure was applied at home.

 

[HelterSkelter]

cant supporting it lead to 'legal murders' in the future?i mean,you could kill a person and then cover it up with euthanasia.at the end of the day,it is killing no matter how legalized it is.you're taking a human life.

 

[Slagathor]

cant supporting it lead to 'legal murders' in the future?i mean,you could kill a person and then cover it up with euthanasia.

Uhm, no you couldn't. Did you even read the above post?

at the end of the day,it is killing no matter how legalized it is.you're taking a human life.

What's your point?

 

[HelterSkelter]

no i didnt read the whole post and thats because im not talking about the dutch law here.im not talking about laws in general.im just talking about what the common man thinks of the whole issue,regardless of what the law says.

and my point was that euthanasia is killing.it should be categorized under it.the support of law doesnt make it any acceptable or any better IMO.

leave the law aside,why do you support it?

 

[Dominic]

So what if it's killing. If the patient wants it (needs it), wouldn't the crime be not to euthanise?

 

[HelterSkelter]

i dont think 'unkilling' a person is a crime.is it?

 

[sateeh]

Originally Posted by salman
cant supporting it lead to 'legal murders' in the future?i mean,you could kill a person and then cover it up with euthanasia.

exactly wat i thought about, but the perp would have to be very smart.This part is what triggered it

to make sure the potion is not taken by a different person, by accident (or, theoretically, for "unauthorized" suicide or perhaps even murder)