[EU] Champions League 04/05 (14 Viewers)

[Fred]

++ [ originally posted by chxta ] ++


He's still at Gaziantespor and is doing OK. But he is an example of the point that I have been trying to make since...

If he were European, his talent would have been noticed and he'd have been lighting up one of the big leagues now...

He should be the same age as Joe Cole now, but fred weasley, who's better now, and who was better then?

Get the point?

damn you,you had to use this example
Ettaeb is 27 now,but he was noticed,like i said West ham wanted him but couldnt get him,but i honestly believe that he would have been one of europes best players if he had moved to europe at that time.

and its good to know he's doing well

 

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[Chxta]

++ [ originally posted by fred weasley ] ++
damn you,you had to use this example
Ettaeb is 27 now,but he was noticed,like i said West ham wanted him but couldnt get him,but i honestly believe that he would have been one of europes best players if he had moved to europe at that time.

and its good to know he's doing well

Hehehe

 

[Chxta]

Well see you guys later. I am off to lunch.

 

[Fred]

just as we started to get along,

see you.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by chxta ] ++
I have said that the ACL is good. Only you didn't bother to read that, or you delibrately didn't notice that. I never claimed that it is as good as the UCL, but do not equate an entire continent with your pub. That is worse than being silly. I have always rated you as being very analytical, so I expect better from you.

And I expected you to understand the use of exaggeration for the purposes of highlighting the defecit in your analysis. The simple fact is that the standards we are talking about aren't very high. If they were, we'd have seen a bit more from the African nations in the World Cup. That is the core of my argument. Not who Andy Reid is, not where all the talent in world football arises (I'd seen several clips of Lopex play last year, before almost anyone else here would have heard of him - an advantage of having friends from Argentina) but who is better. Nigeria, for all their occasional flair on the ball, have never struck me as a team able to challenge the very best.

Finally, you have thrown even more sand on your own argument about the Ireland-Nigeria match. What on earth does a match between our respective second string/youth team demonstrate?

And to clarify an issue, I don't expect the African or Asian representatives at that tournament to do too well. Leave that to the Europeans and South Americans for the time being...

Why? Aren't they good enough?

Lack of experience? Fernabache isn't major? PSG's one of the best in France. IMO Okocha was silly not to go to Italy in 1994 when Inter asked for him. Had he gone then... But that is besides the point now, even Kanu who is a waste as far as most Nigerians are concerned has more football medals in his cabinet than Michael Owen... Champion's League, Cup Winners, Dutch League, Dutch Cup, Coppa Italia (not too sure about that one), Premiership, FA Cup, Olympic Gold, African footballer of the year, how many current English NT players have that much? And Kanu's on our bench.

Yes, Fenerbache aren't all that good, and the French league is hardly amazing these days, though it is still a proving ground for excellent players. Kanu's rubbish, but he once looked like he had a lot of potential. At least he tried.

Wrong about Ghana. They should have had it in the 1980s and early 90s, but they didn't even qualify for the last Nation's Cup. You see potential and act on it. Even Fergie knows that and applies it. Rooney wasn't the finished goods when he bought him and still isn't. Someone saw Ronaldinho in Nigeria 99 and the next thing he was in PSG. The rest is history.

Yes, my point exactly. Potential, talent, are nothing without some return from it.

...put England and Nigeria together and say England is better overall... that statement belongs in the history books.

I disagree, and the results do too. Nigeria are 21st in the rankings, while England's results have them in 8th. Yes, the gap isn't huge, but it is a gap.

As for my comforting SKy subscription, it doesn't exist. I spent last night watching some Bundesliga football, and watch the EPL, Serie A and occasional highlights from Spain, Holland and Brazil (unfortunately no longer available to me). There are three types of live football I watch: League of Ireland, international games and the Champions League.

 

[madlawyer1]

If we are going to start comparing African and European players, I think the case of the price tags on English players calls for some comment. For instance, if Wayne Rooney was from Nigeria, his price tag would have been much less than 30 million pounds. Now, coinsidering that fact, how much would, say, Kolo Toure have cost if he was English? Generally, European palyers are priced far above their actual value, and African players are valued cheaply cos they are so desperate to move out of the poverty in their countries that they are willing to get exploited abroad if only for a shot at a better life even though they are far better than many of their European contemporaries.

 

[pembohong]

++ [ originally posted by madlawyer1 ] ++
If we are going to start comparing African and European players, I think the case of the price tags on English players calls for some comment. For instance, if Wayne Rooney was from Nigeria, his price tag would have been much less than 30 million pounds. Now, coinsidering that fact, how much would, say, Kolo Toure have cost if he was English? Generally, European palyers are priced far above their actual value, and African players are valued cheaply cos they are so desperate to move out of the poverty in their countries that they are willing to get exploited abroad if only for a shot at a better life even though they are far better than many of their European contemporaries.

I don't think nationality will affects the price tag that much. It's the former club that determined the price tag. Kolo Toure was bought from an unknown small club in Ivory Coast therefore he's not expensive. But I bet it would take more than that to buy him from Arsenal now. Another example, we bought Alessandro Del Piero from Padova for a very cheap price although he's an European player. Well, you get the point.

 

[Chxta]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

Nigeria, for all their occasional flair on the ball, have never struck me as a team able to challenge the very best.

Is your humble opinion, but not neccesarily true, example: Nigeria versus England 2002 World Cup, and that is assuming England are among the very best.

Finally, you have thrown even more sand on your own argument about the Ireland-Nigeria match. What on earth does a match between our respective second string/youth team demonstrate?

My memory fails me with age, but please can you refresh it with the starting line ups on that day. One of these days if I have the time I'll google it out.

I disagree, and the results do too. Nigeria are 21st in the rankings, while England's results have them in 8th. Yes, the gap isn't huge, but it is a gap.

England are ranked so high because they tend to play more friendlies than almost everyone else, and definitely more than Nigeria. the question then becomes, are those friendlies anything to be taken seriously?
In the last calender year, England have played at least 10 friendlies, Nigeria have played just 4, but we are still up there amongst the World's best 20.

As to real analyst's opinion of friendlies, I'll refer you to what Derek Rae has to say... http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=324547&cc=3888

As for my comforting SKy subscription, it doesn't exist. I spent last night watching some Bundesliga football, and watch the EPL, Serie A and occasional highlights from Spain, Holland and Brazil (unfortunately no longer available to me). There are three types of live football I watch: League of Ireland, international games and the Champions League.

Yes, I noticed. You watch very limited football nowadays. Not my fault though. I still love you all the same. :thumb:

 

[Lilianna]

anyone believes juve can make it in delle alpi???

i doubt :down:

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


You do not even know who Utaka is and you're trying to lecture chxta on a Nigeria vs England debate?

 

[Chxta]

Thank you Andy...

 

[JCK]

++ [ originally posted by Lilianna ] ++
anyone believes juve can make it in delle alpi???

i doubt :down:

We made it Lili

 

[Chxta]

Say Zizou's probably out of our clash at Delle Alpi.

FVCK!!!

Gives them an excuse when we beat em!

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by chxta ] ++
Is your humble opinion, but not neccesarily true, example: Nigeria versus England 2002 World Cup, and that is assuming England are among the very best.

Individual results mean nothing. Otherwise we'd all be praising the mighty Basle or some such.

My memory fails me with age, but please can you refresh it with the starting line ups on that day. One of these days if I have the time I'll google it out.

IRL: Nick Colgan; Steve Finnan, Kenny Cunningham, Gary Doherty, Alan
Maybury (Clive Clark 46); Liam Miller (Martin Rowlands 46), Mark
Kinsella, Matt Holland (Jonathan Douglas 67), Stephen McPhail;
Robbie Keane (Graham Barrett 84), Alan Lee.
NGA: Sunday Rotimi; George Abbey, Seyi Olajengbesi, Joseph Enakharhire,
Garba Lawal; John Utaka, Seyi Olofinjana (Paul Obiefule 87),
Christian Obodo, Ifeanyi Ekwueme; Obafemi Martins (Yakubu Adamu
83), Bartholomew Ogbeche (Raibu Baita 69).

Colgan and Maybury were both based in Scotland (non-old Firm), and Colgan is now stinking up the second division (or whatever it's called these days). They may have had two, three caps between them. Doherty is a medicore striker who sometimes plays in defense - we had six injuries to defenders. Clarke debuted here. Miller may or may not have debuted, but he certainly had hardly a cap to his name. Kinsella is all but retired (I've lost track of what lower league side Villa had shipped him off to), I've never even heard of Jonathan Douglas, Steve McFrail is in the second division now after being turfed out by Leeds. Barrett has maybe two, three caps. Lee has about the same, and not a goal to show for them. Both are lower division strikers.

That team means nothing. You could cobble together a Nigerian women's team to beat them.

England are ranked so high because they tend to play more friendlies than almost everyone else, and definitely more than Nigeria. the question then becomes, are those friendlies anything to be taken seriously?
In the last calender year, England have played at least 10 friendlies, Nigeria have played just 4, but we are still up there amongst the World's best 20.

England suck in friendlies - if anything, they probably lose more points than they gain in them. Besides, this still doesn't answer the argument of results in tournaments.

As to real analyst's opinion of friendlies, I'll refer you to what Derek Rae has to say... http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=324547&cc=3888

He decries them as farce, which is hardly an indication of their status-boosting nature.

Yes, I noticed. You watch very limited football nowadays. Not my fault though. I still love you all the same. :thumb:

Sure, I must tune in to the Argentinian league at some stage, and I want my coverage of Brazilian football back groan: ), but that's about all I really don't ever got to see that's worth seeing. Yes, in my humble opinion. It's all I've got.

 

[Dr-Juve]

++ [ originally posted by Lilianna ] ++
anyone believes juve can make it in delle alpi???

i doubt :down:

50%-50%

 

[Chxta]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

Individual results mean nothing. Otherwise we'd all be praising the mighty Basle or some such.


IRL: Nick Colgan; Steve Finnan, Kenny Cunningham, Gary Doherty, Alan
Maybury (Clive Clark 46); Liam Miller (Martin Rowlands 46), Mark
Kinsella, Matt Holland (Jonathan Douglas 67), Stephen McPhail;
Robbie Keane (Graham Barrett 84), Alan Lee.
NGA: Sunday Rotimi; George Abbey, Seyi Olajengbesi, Joseph Enakharhire,
Garba Lawal; John Utaka, Seyi Olofinjana (Paul Obiefule 87),
Christian Obodo, Ifeanyi Ekwueme; Obafemi Martins (Yakubu Adamu
83), Bartholomew Ogbeche (Raibu Baita 69).

Colgan and Maybury were both based in Scotland (non-old Firm), and Colgan is now stinking up the second division (or whatever it's called these days). They may have had two, three caps between them. Doherty is a medicore striker who sometimes plays in defense - we had six injuries to defenders. Clarke debuted here. Miller may or may not have debuted, but he certainly had hardly a cap to his name. Kinsella is all but retired (I've lost track of what lower league side Villa had shipped him off to), I've never even heard of Jonathan Douglas, Steve McFrail is in the second division now after being turfed out by Leeds. Barrett has maybe two, three caps. Lee has about the same, and not a goal to show for them. Both are lower division strikers.

That team means nothing. You could cobble together a Nigerian women's team to beat them.

Remember we beat you at Lansdown Road just before the World Cup? Full squad. Doesn't mean anything though. You ended up doing better in the actual tourney.

As to the women? Liar!!!

England suck in friendlies - if anything, they probably lose more points than they gain in them. Besides, this still doesn't answer the argument of results in tournaments.

No, they gain points no matter the result. It is teams who hardly play, such as Nigeria that don't gain any.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by chxta ] ++
Remember we beat you at Lansdown Road just before the World Cup? Full squad. Doesn't mean anything though. You ended up doing better in the actual tourney.

Actually, no. I remember Duff single-handedly beating the stuffing out of the Danes, and a brief water-polo match against the US, but that's it. Maybe I didn't see if for some reason. Got a match report handy?[/quote]

As to the women? Liar!!!

No, they gain points no matter the result. It is teams who hardly play, such as Nigeria that don't gain any.

Fair enough. I still think their performances are a bit better, but I think we're approaching agreement to disagree.

 

[Chxta]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

Actually, no. I remember Duff single-handedly beating the stuffing out of the Danes, and a brief water-polo match against the US, but that's it. Maybe I didn't see if for some reason. Got a match report handy?

You'll find the attached image useful, it is from FIFA's website. When I have time I'll get you a full matche report.

Fair enough. I still think their performances are a bit better, but I think we're approaching agreement to disagree.

No. We may disagree, but I think you are beginning either to get tired of this long running battle, or better still, to see the truth in what I am saying.

Even Derek Rae (incidentally he's one of my favourite analysts) sees it too...

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=302468&cc=3888

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=311321&cc=3888

Lest we digress from the original topic and let this become a Nigeria versus Ireland fiasco, I'd like to ask why no one outside England ever says such nice things about the English NT?


Edit: sorry, I almost forgot to attach the image for you.

 

[Nicole]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

All I'm saying is that performances at international tournaments prove nothing. [/QUOTE

actually gray, they prove a hell of alot...what did Euro2004 prove? It proved that Trap, as much respect for what he has achieved as I do, was inept as a international manager, it proved Corradi shouldnt ever be allowed to play for the azzuri again. It proved that the youngster...De Rossi, Cassano, Gila shouldnt be given there chance...it proved France we still flops, and Henry is still a bottler, it unfortuantly proved that a good defence, and almost no attacking intent can win torny's...it proved that Ronaldo, Rooney, Lahm were all top class players...it proved that Spain will never do well in a international tornement again, etc etc etc...You know gray, the true greats of football are those that have won a international comp...as wrong as that is...

Bobby Moore, Geoff Hurst...van Basten, Cryuff, Rijkaard...Pele, Zico...Maradona...Zidane...

 

[madlawyer1]

ok, so the former club of a player has some impact on his price. but u have to agree that the player's nationality is also an issue. to reiterate, if someone wanted kolo toure from Arsenal, he would have to pay good money for him now cos he'll be buying an Arsenal player, but his price tag still wouldn't hit the friggin roof. can anyone tell me that if rio ferdiand wasn't english, man utd would have had to shell out 30 million quid for him? he came from Leeds by the way, and last time i checked, they didn't have a massive reputation.