So Heysel is more important that Hillsborough? It's this kind of thinking that's the problem.
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[ENG] Premier League 2013/2014 (124 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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Oh, I agree with your points about defending hooliganism. People are idiots if they think that they can shift blame to others in that situation. I'm a believer in the fact that alcohol doesn't turn otherwise normal people into raging monsters. If you turn into a violent person while drunk, you're probably already predisposed to that type of behavior. You also can't expect businesses in the area to drop everything and cater (or not cater, in this case) to drunken lunatics who come into town. Besides, if the bars had been closed, they would have found some other way, I'm sure. And the other part is ridiculous too - "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". Anyone who uses any of those two "excuses" as a justification is an idiot.
But the reason I feel the same thing can't be applied to Hillsborough (including fans' involvement) is that none of it had to do with hooliganism, no one was out that day to hurt anyone. It was poor organization that led to too many people being crowded into one small section, I doubt the people in the back had any clue what was going on up front.
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All this brings up an interesting discussion too - how many people would be in favor of reintroducing standing terraces in football stadiums? I would say yes, if there are enough proper safety measures in place. No one gets in without a ticket, strict maximum capacity, and easier ways to get people out in case something does happen. I think it would massively help with the dull atmospheres in a lot of stadiums. However, I don't see it happening, football has become too clean, modern and corporate these days.
But the reason I feel the same thing can't be applied to Hillsborough (including fans' involvement) is that none of it had to do with hooliganism, no one was out that day to hurt anyone. It was poor organization that led to too many people being crowded into one small section, I doubt the people in the back had any clue what was going on up front.
- - - Updated - - -
All this brings up an interesting discussion too - how many people would be in favor of reintroducing standing terraces in football stadiums? I would say yes, if there are enough proper safety measures in place. No one gets in without a ticket, strict maximum capacity, and easier ways to get people out in case something does happen. I think it would massively help with the dull atmospheres in a lot of stadiums. However, I don't see it happening, football has become too clean, modern and corporate these days.
They're equally tragic in their own right.
I have to hand this much to Liverpool, however. Yes, a few bad, unruly fans smeared all the good ones. That happens all the time in football, unfortunately. But while it's taken forever for it to come to this, Liverpool perhaps more than any other football organization has put forward the memory of Heysel as a disaster we should respect, remember, and not repeat. I know some juventini disliked their club overtures since 2000 or so, saying that it was years too late (which it was). But there is an attempt at an olive branch there -- something you don't often see among football clubs or fans.
You could even say Liverpool has done more to remember and recognize Heysel than Juventus has. That's for sure.
But Heysel and Hillsborough were quite different. One a disaster spurred on by malicious intent, the other a man-made disaster primarily rooted in ineptitude and poor decision-making. While there were penalties to clubs, police security, and some fans caught on video, was there justice for the 39 in Heysel? Of course not. How could there be?
Exactly. But we have people calling out murders at Hillsborough, which by comparison is absurd and dilutes the egregiousness of the deliberate actions at Heysel. The problem with calling everything a 'genocide' is that after a while you make Hitler and Hutus look like average blokes.
Too many horror stories to recover from still, IMO.
I have to hand this much to Liverpool, however. Yes, a few bad, unruly fans smeared all the good ones. That happens all the time in football, unfortunately. But while it's taken forever for it to come to this, Liverpool perhaps more than any other football organization has put forward the memory of Heysel as a disaster we should respect, remember, and not repeat. I know some juventini disliked their club overtures since 2000 or so, saying that it was years too late (which it was). But there is an attempt at an olive branch there -- something you don't often see among football clubs or fans.
You could even say Liverpool has done more to remember and recognize Heysel than Juventus has. That's for sure.
But Heysel and Hillsborough were quite different. One a disaster spurred on by malicious intent, the other a man-made disaster primarily rooted in ineptitude and poor decision-making. While there were penalties to clubs, police security, and some fans caught on video, was there justice for the 39 in Heysel? Of course not. How could there be?
Exactly. But we have people calling out murders at Hillsborough, which by comparison is absurd and dilutes the egregiousness of the deliberate actions at Heysel. The problem with calling everything a 'genocide' is that after a while you make Hitler and Hutus look like average blokes.
Too many horror stories to recover from still, IMO.
And you can't blame them.
It's worth pointing out that Heysel's punishments were partly directed at Liverpool, but almost as equally directed to a long history of unacceptable English football hooliganism. It needed a ridiculous cleaning out, big time, and Heysel was the straw that broke the camel's back.
And yet the English NT experienced no sanctions whatsoever as a result, and arguably the hooligans at their matches were the worst of all. Yet another reason why I detest the England NT.
It's worth pointing out that Heysel's punishments were partly directed at Liverpool, but almost as equally directed to a long history of unacceptable English football hooliganism. It needed a ridiculous cleaning out, big time, and Heysel was the straw that broke the camel's back.
And yet the English NT experienced no sanctions whatsoever as a result, and arguably the hooligans at their matches were the worst of all. Yet another reason why I detest the England NT.
![Juventino[RUS]](https://www.juventuz.com/data/avatars/m/5/5409.jpg?1650619365){kind=avatar}
![Juventino[RUS]](https://www.juventuz.com/data/avatars/s/5/5409.jpg?1650619365){kind=avatar}
sad times
