[ENG] Premier League 2013/2014 (185 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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I dont agree with Man United doing the Justice for the 39, they are only using it to wind up Liverpool fans and would not be doing it if Liverpool were finishing above them imo. That is the wrong way to remember the dead imo and will only cause more trouble.
I always hated the way Liverpool make such a big deal about Hillsborough but the people their fans are responsible for killing they never mention it at all and dont do anything to remember them lost souls.
2 of my uncles were at Heysel in 1985 so i could have easily lost family members there and i dont like it one bit how Liverpool have never done anything like they do for Hillsborough.
I always hated the way Liverpool make such a big deal about Hillsborough but the people their fans are responsible for killing they never mention it at all and dont do anything to remember them lost souls.
2 of my uncles were at Heysel in 1985 so i could have easily lost family members there and i dont like it one bit how Liverpool have never done anything like they do for Hillsborough.
Moyes is a shit coach.
But.
Man U can sign all 3 of Klopp, Simeone and Conte and they will still not win anything with that midfield and defense. The team is so poorly constructed it's hilarious. Ferguson took a look at what was needed in the transfer window and said, "Nope. This mess is for someone else." And retired smartly.
I mean, they don't have a single midfielder or defender that I'd actually want. Fellaini was a joke signing for the midfield.
But.
Man U can sign all 3 of Klopp, Simeone and Conte and they will still not win anything with that midfield and defense. The team is so poorly constructed it's hilarious. Ferguson took a look at what was needed in the transfer window and said, "Nope. This mess is for someone else." And retired smartly.
I mean, they don't have a single midfielder or defender that I'd actually want. Fellaini was a joke signing for the midfield.
They also sang "justice for the 39"
They're right, btw. Unlike the situation with Hillsborough, at Heysel there actually was the harmful intent to injure fans.Moyes incompetence is a cover-up for a crap club right now.
Sure, it's about winding up Liverpool. But even if someone has ulterior motives for bringing up Heysel, I still welcome it to remind them and keep everybody honest.
There is all sorts of chest-beating and lamenting over the terrible Hillsborough deaths while at the same time a complete whitewashing of Liverpool fans' deliberate role in the intentional injury and death of other fans. Hypocrites, all of them.
There is no justice for the 96 until you first can have justice for the 39.
They're right, btw. Unlike the situation with Hillsborough, at Heysel there actually was the harmful intent to injure fans.Moyes incompetence is a cover-up for a crap club right now.
Sure, it's about winding up Liverpool. But even if someone has ulterior motives for bringing up Heysel, I still welcome it to remind them and keep everybody honest.
There is all sorts of chest-beating and lamenting over the terrible Hillsborough deaths while at the same time a complete whitewashing of Liverpool fans' deliberate role in the intentional injury and death of other fans. Hypocrites, all of them.
There is no justice for the 96 until you first can have justice for the 39.
I don't want to start an argument, just really trying to understand the mentality. It's something that I care a lot about, as I've got family/family friends who support Liverpool, they're the first club I ever watched, to this day I still support them in the PL. I used to correspond with someone who was at both Heysel and Hillsborough. As well as the fact that people dying at a football match absolutely disgusts me, as it should everyone. But I've never really discussed it with Juve fans before last week, only Liverpool fans so perhaps I'm one-sided in my opinion.
IMO, my main point is I think any sense of "justice" is impossible in the Hillsborough case. That's like saying there's justice for the victims of the Titanic. It ain't happening. It's not even possible.
And yes, pinning blame on the fans is a problem. But much of that in hindsight has been undone. And even with police incompetency to consider, the fans were part of the cause of the disaster no matter how you slice it. Maybe they weren't drunken and violent as they wrongly suggested at first, but people squeezing in to the center sections continually is going to crush somebody. In such a case, the police's failure is in preventing self-inflicted injury.
Let's not forget that nobody died under the same FA Cup semifinal circumstances for multiple years beforehand, even if the events in 1981 got a little dicey. Something was absolutely different in 1989 from previous years, and it wasn't just the head of the cops.
You can look at all the Eritrian immigrants who drowned off Lampedusa in Oct when their ferry sunk in a similar light. Maybe measures should prevent the overcrowding of the boats, but when a mass of people lunge to one side in a panic ... some of those very victims share some part of the fault.
And yes, pinning blame on the fans is a problem. But much of that in hindsight has been undone. And even with police incompetency to consider, the fans were part of the cause of the disaster no matter how you slice it. Maybe they weren't drunken and violent as they wrongly suggested at first, but people squeezing in to the center sections continually is going to crush somebody. In such a case, the police's failure is in preventing self-inflicted injury.
Let's not forget that nobody died under the same FA Cup semifinal circumstances for multiple years beforehand, even if the events in 1981 got a little dicey. Something was absolutely different in 1989 from previous years, and it wasn't just the head of the cops.
You can look at all the Eritrian immigrants who drowned off Lampedusa in Oct when their ferry sunk in a similar light. Maybe measures should prevent the overcrowding of the boats, but when a mass of people lunge to one side in a panic ... some of those very victims share some part of the fault.
In 1981, it was at least a little easier to maneuver around on the terraces, even with overcrowding. Fans could always move to their left or right to avoid being crushed and make room for more people. Then when they introduced those pens with railings as barriers between sections, it became problematic, which led to 1989. The fans had no way out. Yeah, while quite literally the fans did crush those people to death, if there had been better organization and safety measures in place, that would not have been a problem. Not to mention that after it occurred, the number of cops who just stood there with their backs turned to people who were on the ground dying around them, and the severe lack of available medical assistance - 40+ of those people could have potentially been saved by proper medical attention at the scene.
Back to Heysel, though - what would have to happen for Juve fans to feel a sense of justice? Does a club really need to take full responsibility for the actions of a group of criminals who wore their colors? Or fans who weren't even there have to be made to feel guilty about it? Besides, even if you don't think it's "right", it's human nature to care more about your own than others. If the tables were turned, I think many here would agree.
(By the way, don't take this as me minimizing or belittling the Heysel tragedy, because I'm not. Both were needless events, and it's possible that if I were a Juve fan or I'd known someone who was killed at Heysel I would feel a lot differently. I'm just trying to get the opinion of both sides, since prior I only had the opinion of one.)
Back to Heysel, though - what would have to happen for Juve fans to feel a sense of justice? Does a club really need to take full responsibility for the actions of a group of criminals who wore their colors? Or fans who weren't even there have to be made to feel guilty about it? Besides, even if you don't think it's "right", it's human nature to care more about your own than others. If the tables were turned, I think many here would agree.
(By the way, don't take this as me minimizing or belittling the Heysel tragedy, because I'm not. Both were needless events, and it's possible that if I were a Juve fan or I'd known someone who was killed at Heysel I would feel a lot differently. I'm just trying to get the opinion of both sides, since prior I only had the opinion of one.)
All these disasters come from multiple levels of failure that contributed to the end result. If not this, if not that, if not the other -- then it wouldn't have happened. I think it's important to recognize those factors, but doing so can also be a cop out.
For example, you can't use the Heysel argument of, "Well, if Belgium left the bars around the stadium open before the match, what did they expect would happen?" As if a bar owner must presume hooliganism and thus be the behavior that had to change -- not the louts getting drunk and disorderly. That's basically saying don't blame the alcoholic, blame the brewer. Hooligans are defended and coddled with a, "But I couldn't help myself! The bar was open!" which is treating them like infants and shirks all responsibility.
You also can't use the Heysel argument of, "Well, in England we would just never let opposing fans stand this close to each other..." The hooligans weren't in England and they knew that. That's also not a defense, as if to say that public urination is legal in Pakistan so therefore any Pakistani immigrants to the UK should be allowed to piss anywhere they please.
Juve itself bears some fault in Heysel, although it's never really said enough and is probably a taboo topic here. That includes the fans at the match who incited some of the atmosphere to the fact that the Block Z tickets were put in hands despite being next door to the Liverpool lot, etc. Justice to me doesn't mean holding one group, any group, accountable and guilty. It's holding everyone accountable in an accurate manner -- although when you hear cries of "justice for the 96" that's precisely NOT the sort of justice they are talking about.
Perhaps the biggest injustice in Heysel was UEFA itself -- they skated past all responsibility and yet had so much to bear.
For example, you can't use the Heysel argument of, "Well, if Belgium left the bars around the stadium open before the match, what did they expect would happen?" As if a bar owner must presume hooliganism and thus be the behavior that had to change -- not the louts getting drunk and disorderly. That's basically saying don't blame the alcoholic, blame the brewer. Hooligans are defended and coddled with a, "But I couldn't help myself! The bar was open!" which is treating them like infants and shirks all responsibility.
You also can't use the Heysel argument of, "Well, in England we would just never let opposing fans stand this close to each other..." The hooligans weren't in England and they knew that. That's also not a defense, as if to say that public urination is legal in Pakistan so therefore any Pakistani immigrants to the UK should be allowed to piss anywhere they please.
Juve itself bears some fault in Heysel, although it's never really said enough and is probably a taboo topic here. That includes the fans at the match who incited some of the atmosphere to the fact that the Block Z tickets were put in hands despite being next door to the Liverpool lot, etc. Justice to me doesn't mean holding one group, any group, accountable and guilty. It's holding everyone accountable in an accurate manner -- although when you hear cries of "justice for the 96" that's precisely NOT the sort of justice they are talking about.
Perhaps the biggest injustice in Heysel was UEFA itself -- they skated past all responsibility and yet had so much to bear.