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LiquidPLP

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2012
12,237
i saw isco enough last few seasons to know ;) and i dont hate him, hes just overrated here for some reason so i argue with people who think that hes some WC AM
Yeah WC AM is overboard as well but he still could become one if he finds the right environment. Cuadrado was a disgusting ball-hogger too when he came here but Allegri managed to cut that shit out of his game. Isco's biggest flaw is exactly that. Looks like Allegri could be the right coach for him, couldn't he?

Even Nostradamus thinks Isco could cut it here but you two make it sound like he's Amauri or something, lol.

When it comes to Isco, he definitely works more in defence than Pjanic and Saponara, who you guys seem to like a lot. And then there's the argument we need a hardworking AM, because of Pogba.
 

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MikeM

Footballing Hipster celebrating 4th place with Tuz
Sep 21, 2008
12,850
Isco is a great player. His work rate is not that bad.

There are some questions about his end product that prevents him from getting into the top tier of truly WC AMs though.

He can over dribble sometimes but the difference between him and someone like Cuadrado is that Isco can ALSO play short passes in tight areas. He can also be a highly technical and quick player. It's not like he lacks that ability and is left with only the option of dribbling, like some players.

I do wonder about the viability of employing a "CAM" nowadays though. In a 4-2-3-1 of course but I don't see many other formations that make sense. 4-3-1-2 is a really tricky formation IMO.

If it comes down to it, a Morata-Isco swap would probably be a gift when you look at the alternatives like losing Morata outright.
 

Xperd

Allegrophobic Infidel
Jun 1, 2012
35,166
Yup, exactly my thought.

It's funny how people in here want to play Pjanic as regista and shit like that and then you hear Isco's defensive contribution is shit :lol:
Its certainly irritating for sure.

Just got to ignore and move on.

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Evra close to renewal-GDM
 

Nostradamus

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2012
832
IMO Isco is more strategic with little end product, but better defensive contribution to compare him with Götze, who has much better end product, but worse defense. Götze more final 3rd, Isco behind that. The Juve set up could be perfect for him to develop as a hybrid between the lines connecting them without losing stability. I see it working great. Put ur DNA on him..assimilate him..make him feel valuable and appreciated and...
 

Xperd

Allegrophobic Infidel
Jun 1, 2012
35,166
Workrate is the last thing you'd want to point out at Isco.

Look at other AM's like James,Ozil,Mata,Gotze casually walking around with little to no defensive contribution and suddenly Isco would look like an engine compared to them.
 

MikeM

Footballing Hipster celebrating 4th place with Tuz
Sep 21, 2008
12,850
Workrate is the last thing you'd want to point out at Isco.

Look at other AM's like James,Ozil,Mata,Gotze casually walking around with little to no defensive contribution and suddenly Isco would look like an engine compared to them.
Yes. Those are the players you need a specific system for. Sometimes Isco looks like he can play CM. More of the Spanish style CM like Iniesta, Koke, Thiago who are not necessarily brick walls but they put in a shift. I don't think he's quite at that level of work rate but if you have 60% possession, he can probably do it from game to game.
 

dolph

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2006
2,599
Yeah, exactly my reaction when I see you and Zach hate on players like Isco for no particular reason. Then there come such arguments like the one above and you wonder if there are members who have monopoly on being right in here.

Just because a lie is repeated one hundred times, it doesn't mean it suddenly becomes true. I have nothing against you guys but you go overboard with those sometimes. Better start watching games from now on, or never claim you know a player that you never saw :tup:
:tup:
 

LiquidPLP

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2012
12,237
Yes. Those are the players you need a specific system for. Sometimes Isco looks like he can play CM. More of the Spanish style CM like Iniesta, Koke, Thiago who are not necessarily brick walls but they put in a shift. I don't think he's quite at that level of work rate but if you have 60% possession, he can probably do it from game to game.
Agreed. I would just add one more thing: with Isco next to Pogba, Khedira and Marchisio you're very likely to have that ~60% of possession in most games we'd play.
 

dolph

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2006
2,599
i saw isco enough last few seasons to know ;) and i dont hate him, hes just overrated here for some reason so i argue with people who think that hes some WC AM
I did not say he was WC. I said that he was an excellent player and that he is better than Pjanic. I think he has WC potential and that he will become WC if he was played as an AM with him as a focal point of the attack. You and Zach said that he was crap, a failure with pathetic stats, which are obviusly not true.
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
51,816
Yeah WC AM is overboard as well but he still could become one if he finds the right environment. Cuadrado was a disgusting ball-hogger too when he came here but Allegri managed to cut that $#@! out of his game. Isco's biggest flaw is exactly that. Looks like Allegri could be the right coach for him, couldn't he?

Even Nostradamus thinks Isco could cut it here but you two make it sound like he's Amauri or something, lol.

When it comes to Isco, he definitely works more in defence than Pjanic and Saponara, who you guys seem to like a lot. And then there's the argument we need a hardworking AM, because of Pogba.
I dont think I say hes that much crap for someone to think hes as bad as Amauri. My points about Isco are that he had potential to develop into a top AM but failed to live up to that and stagnated year after year (he was better few years ago than now), and hes definitely not worth paying 50M+ for. Hes 24 already and doesent really qualify as some youth prospect that could turn out great, he should be showing hes a top player already. His playing style also isnt very effective and hes someone that has to have the ball a lot to be of use, which is why i think he would shine somewhere where the team is built around him (4-8 placed La Liga teams are ideal for him). I was arguing with dolph because he thinks Isco is better player than Pjanic which is not true. The later is the better player currently (and was for most part of their careers) and id even take Berardi, whos 2 years younger and because of his more effective playing style
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,511
People here go in circles and too defenite of their opinions like they are afraid to be seen as wrong. Lets just say what do you see when you see Isco play? Kind of player?

For me Isco is a faciliator type of playmaker instead of the direct decisive final play kind. Kind of playing style and role thats died out in a wing/psuedo forwards/inside forward obssessed football. Besides his flaw of overdribbling, in overall his playing style is close to a true nr 10 Iniesta or Zizou who both wouldnt allways make the direct assist (someone like James is alot more direct) everytime but open things up with ingenuity and skill in the build up just before decisive final third, things you dont see in stats (for example look at what he did in Malaga, you had to watch them/him, because his few assists or goals wouldnt tell you how insanely influential he was at 19). Just like its already illustrated you dont go by goals/assist stats to phantom the greatness of someone like Modric. They are players who need to move with lots of freedom, the kind thats not given much anymore since so few play with 4-3-1-2 in the hole approach anymore in current game (funnily enough we are only top team who would if we go back to that Allegri favoured approach).

Teams arent willing to put the entire burden of creativity and attacking impetus on a single player, rise and fall on a nr 10s moods or consistency (I get it, because it used to annoy me to watch how inept we looked at times when Zizou was completely off, became better team with Nedved and Camo sharing burden). So these players have been pushed wide or downwards, hence why he becomes CM for Real (Zizou would prolly become LW or CM in current systems). And a young Iniesta spent half a decade in Barca being wasted on the wing before he got the comfortable role thats molded to his skillset later on and he became world class. Not sure if you guys remember a young Iniesta vividly, but he was very inconsistent or very weirdly used off the bench in attack, best example of how patience pays off big time...Something organisations like Real never have (this is why we have Morata in our books), and hence you will most likely see him flourish outside then with them after their usual rehash everything with new toys habit kicks in.

Just to make it perfectly clear. I'm talking playing style and not comparing his abilities to them even though he has great qualities, but lets not forget this guy is still 23-24. ALOT of room to grow with time and trust/proper role. And alot of chances to make some here eat humble pie. Its not about world class this or that, its just weird idea to see someone like Isco play and not see the insanely obvious sheer quality he has to his game. And how much better it can be when its fully developed.
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
51,816
I did not say he was WC. I said that he was an excellent player and that he is better than Pjanic. I think he has WC potential and that he will become WC if he was played as an AM with him as a focal point of the attack. You and Zach said that he was crap, a failure with pathetic stats, which are obviusly not true.
Well he is a failure, if you think he has WC potential and if you know what he turned into
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,511
So both Barzagli and Evra renewed.

Pogba next ?
Evra renewed? :tuttosport: Even if I have given him hard time past months, thats great news, I thought he was only one who wouldnt renew. It would been a unnecessary strain in our depth and resources to try to replace when we have so many more urgent needs.

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and id even take Berardi, whos 2 years younger and because of his more effective playing style
This makes no sense whatsoever, and I been big advocator of Berardi in Juve shirt. And still I'm. Forget the price or role, you watch both players and think Berardi is honestly better???? Incredible level of stubborness if true.
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
51,816
Evra renewed? :tuttosport: Even if I have given him hard time past months, thats great news, I thought he was only one who wouldnt renew. It would been a unnecessary strain in our depth and resources to try to replace when we have so many more urgent needs.

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This makes no sense whatsoever, and I been big advocator of Berardi in Juve shirt. And still I'm. Forget the price or role, you watch both players and think Berardi is honestly better???? Incredible level of stubborness if true.
I didnt say better i said 2 years younger and has a more direct and effective playing style. But could see him become better in a few years depending on where and if Isco goes
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,511
Honestly, its 2 years that seperates them, One still plays in Sassuolo and the other one is called a flop in a season he has 10 assists with Real because he was the golden boy of Europe and seen as one of new main stars of the younger generation. Defenitely clear gulf in expectations and stature. Not even close.
 

Nostradamus

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2012
832
There are just as many rumors for pjanic now as Gomes so why is Gomes still open?
A week ago I was convinced Bayern fixed the deal. Hope nothing has changed I really want him. Hummels, Pjanic and Mr. X (OA/winger) and I m happy. Maybe a talented RB ll be added like Klostermann or my personal favourite Peres.
 
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