Egypt: from 2011 demonstrations to today (8 Viewers)

[Zé Tahir]

Don't talk to me about insaf. Why don't you ask these people to stop being a fitna.

 

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[Turk_Bianconero]

I agree, it's pointless talk about insaf with someone ok with civilians getting massacred.

 

[Zé Tahir]

You mean civilians who are Ikhwan because they're the only ones that seem to matter.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

They are the ones getting massacred, so yes, they are the only ones that seem to matter at this point. Come to your senses.

5 : 8

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

 

[Zé Tahir]

How come you don't show the same feelings towards persecuted Kurds or Israelis?

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

How come you read my mind?

 

[Zé Tahir]

Last autumn I talked to one Bosnian academic, who considered himself a Muslim. He told me that he's a self proclaimed Muslim, but he knows that he's not doing even 5% of the things a Muslim must do. According to him, if we go by the book, only 1 in a million of the self-proclaimed Muslims is a Muslim.

So, if one isn't a Muslim, only because he wants a secularist government, then one can not be a Muslim if he's not doing even 1 single thing of all the things the Muslims MUST do.

Damn, 1 million? Not sure what he thinks is required of him.

The 5 pillars of Islam require the following:

1. Belief in the oneness of God and that Prophet Muhammad is his messenger
2. Praying 5x daily
3. Fasting in the month of Ramadan
4. Paying zakat (alms)
5. Performing Hajj at least once in your lifetime if you can afford and are physically able to do so

These are obligatory but not following 2-5 doesn't make you non-Muslim, it just makes you a crappy one.

I haven't directly accused him of being non-Muslim, did I? But it requires deep ignorance in religious matters to believe Islam and laicism can co-exist. He once said he hates nothing more than MB, calling them beardies(similiarity between kemalist jargon and his). Hates nothing more than MB as if his country run out of enemies? And worst of all, celebrating the death of a 17 years old girl? Islam is a religion not only adjust individual's life but also social life and state government. To be a Muslim you must accept it as a whole. There is no such a thing as ''i like this part of Islam but i don't like this part''. A Muslim simply can't replace Islamic law with man made laws. Even if he can't do anything about, living in a secular state, he has to condemn it in his heart.

In this matter it is an obvious struggle between Muslim and non-Muslims. There is no other way put it. Is it really difficult to understand? When you get confused just look at who is taking sides with whom carefully. Who are celebrating the coup in Egypt?

First of all tell me how one becomes a non-Muslim by saying "alcohol is not haram".

Second of all, where does it say that governments have to governed under "Islamic law"?

Please please please, show me. Let's settle this once and for all.

Once you've shown me what cannot be shown, convince me on whose Islam we should follow. Yours? Your imam's Islam? Maybe your mufti's?
Whose Islam will have to take the back seat while your Islam rules over us? What of the shia MUSLIMS ? What of sufi MUSLIMS? What of ahmadi MUSLIMS?

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

First of all tell me how one becomes a non-Muslim by saying "alcohol is not haram".

Second of all, where does it say that governments have to governed under "Islamic law"?

Please please please, show me. Let's settle this once and for all.

Once you've shown me what cannot be shown, convince me on whose Islam we should follow. Yours? Your imam's Islam? Maybe your mufti's?
Whose Islam will have to take the back seat while your Islam rules over us? What of the shia MUSLIMS ? What of sufi MUSLIMS? What of ahmadi MUSLIMS?

How did you surpassed the kemalists at ignorance about religion? Where are you living? There is no my, your, his Islam. There is only Islam.

First of all tell me how one becomes a non-Muslim by saying "alcohol is not haram".

It's self explanatory. Alcohol being haram is in Quran and hadith. If you want to be a Muslim you have to believe in Quran and if you deny even a single word in it, you can't be a Muslim.

Second of all, where does it say that governments have to governed under "Islamic law"?

As Muslim, our criteria is Asr-ı Saadet. Was it a secular government?

5 : 44

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

 

[Zé Tahir]

How did you surpassed the kemalists at ignorance about religion? Where are you living? There is no my, your, his Islam. There is only Islam.

lol where are you living? Whether you like it not everyone has their own interpretation of the Qur'an. Look around you...now more than ever the Islamic world is divided. That's the reality of the situation. So in your ideal Islamic country, whose interpretation do we follow?

First of all tell me how one becomes a non-Muslim by saying "alcohol is not haram".

It's self explanatory. Alcohol being haram is in Quran and hadith. If you want to be a Muslim you have to believe in Quran and if you deny even a single word in it, you can't be a Muslim.

That's your opinion. I want to you to show me scripture on where it says that denying that alcohol makes you a non-Muslim.

Second of all, where does it say that governments have to governed under "Islamic law"?

As Muslim, our criteria is Asr-ı Saadet. Was it a secular government?

5 : 44

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

Hmm...not sure how this verse is relevant, I can think of others that would be more benefiting your argument. Nonetheless, you're yet to convince me that people, not as individuals but together, have to be governed by Islamic law. I, for example, living in a secular country live by what I consider to be Islamic teachings with no problems whatsoever.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Damn, 1 million? Not sure what he thinks is required of him.

The 5 pillars of Islam require the following:

1. Belief in the oneness of God and that Prophet Muhammad is his messenger
2. Praying 5x daily
3. Fasting in the month of Ramadan
4. Paying zakat (alms)
5. Performing Hajj at least once in your lifetime if you can afford and are physically able to do so

These are obligatory but not following 2-5 doesn't make you non-Muslim, it just makes you a crappy one.

Ze, I thought believing in the day of judgement is also important. Isn't it?

 

[Zé Tahir]

Ze, I thought believing in the day of judgement is also important. Isn't it?

That's part of the Articles of Faith. It's not something you have to do but rather believe in.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

That's your opinion. I want to you to show me scripture on where it says that denying that alcohol makes you a non-Muslim.

Hmm...not sure how this verse is relevant, I can think of others that would be more benefiting your argument. Nonetheless, you're yet to convince me that people, not as individuals but together, have to be governed by Islamic law. I, for example, living in a secular country live by what I consider to be Islamic teachings with no problems whatsoever.

My opinion? Go down to street, ask the people walking around, if alcohol is haram or not, muslim or non-muslim doesn't matter, you won't be able to find a single person who is arguing against it.

Did you ever read Quran? Al-Mā'idah particularly?

5:44

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

5:46

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

5:47

And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

5:48

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

5:49

And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.

5:50

Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].

 

[Zé Tahir]

My opinion? Go down to street, ask the people walking around, if alcohol is haram or not, muslim or non-muslim doesn't matter, you won't be able to find a single person who is arguing against it.

Did you ever read Quran? Al-Mā'idah particularly?

5:44

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

5:46

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

5:47

And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

5:48

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

5:49

And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.

5:50

Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].

You don't have to convince me that alcohol is haram, just convince me that believing it is not makes you non-Muslim.

As for all the verses, you're only proving that as an individual you should follow the Qur'an and the Hadith. You're not proving that your country has to be governed under Islamic law.

Btw you haven't answered my question yet...whose interpretation will we follow?
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Gods says in the Holy Qur'an to the Holy Prophet:

(88:22-23): thou art but an admonisher; Thou hast no authority to compel them.

So what authority do you have to tell others how they should live?

[2:257]: There should be no compulsion in religion.

What gives you the right to force it on people?

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

You don't have to convince me that alcohol is haram, just convince me that believing it is not makes you non-Muslim.

As for all the verses, you're only proving that as an individual you should follow the Qur'an and the Hadith. You're not proving that your country has to be governed under Islamic law.

Btw you haven't answered my question yet...whose interpretation will we follow?

Articles of faith, Believing in Quran, alcohol haram in Quran. When you deny Quran you became a non-Muslim. How can i explain it better? I can't believe how you're so determined to not understand a simple matter like this.

For some reason you're obsessed with interpretation thing. This is not an excuse for someone who is honest in his desire to learn and follow Islam. There is only one Islam and no one is preventing you from following it but yourself.

(88:22-23): thou art but an admonisher; Thou hast no authority to compel them.

So what authority do you have to tell others how they should live?

[2:257]: There should be no compulsion in religion.

What gives you the right to force it on people?

88 : 23

However, he who turns away and disbelieves -

88 : 24

Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.

2 : 257

Allah is the ally of those who believe. He brings them out from darknesses into the light. And those who disbelieve - their allies are Taghut. They take them out of the light into darknesses. Those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Articles of faith, Believing in Quran, alcohol haram in Quran. When you deny Quran you became a non-Muslim. How can i explain it better? I can't believe how you're so determined to not understand a simple matter like this.

For some reason you're obsessed with interpretation thing. This is not an excuse for someone who is honest in his desire to learn and follow Islam. There is only one Islam and no one is preventing you from following it but yourself.

No there isn't only one Islam. It says it in the Qur'an:

"O disbelievers, I do not worship that which you worship, nor do you worship the One whom I worship. And neither I am going to worship that which you have worshipped, nor will you worship the One whom I worship. For you is your faith, and for me, my faith." [109:1-7]

Are you gonna deny the Qur'an, Turk??

Gods says in the Holy Qur'an to the Holy Prophet:

(88:22-23): thou art but an admonisher; Thou hast no authority to compel them.

So what authority do you have to tell others how they should live?

[2:257]: There should be no compulsion in religion.

What gives you the right to force it on people?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

No there isn't only one Islam. It says it in the Qur'an:

"O disbelievers, I do not worship that which you worship, nor do you worship the One whom I worship. And neither I am going to worship that which you have worshipped, nor will you worship the One whom I worship. For you is your faith, and for me, my faith." [109:1-7]

Are you gonna deny the Qur'an, Turk??

Gods says in the Holy Qur'an to the Holy Prophet:

(88:22-23): thou art but an admonisher; Thou hast no authority to compel them.

So what authority do you have to tell others how they should live?

[2:257]: There should be no compulsion in religion.

What gives you the right to force it on people?

Have you started to twist words of Quran now?

''For you is your faith, and for me, my faith.'' It doesn't mean there are different versions of Islam.

109 : 1 - 6

Say, "O disbelievers,

I do not worship what you worship.

Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.

Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.

Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.

For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

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''There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion.''

That means there will be no forced convertions, doesn't mean a Muslim is free to act as he wishes.

 

[Catenaccio]

Please excuse my ignorance here as I am not very familiar with Islam (I was raised a catholic but am now pretty much Agnostic - moved from Catholic Light to - who I am I kidding, I am agnostic).

Anyway, to my question. Is there anything specific in the Quran about women. In other words, anything specific about them needing to wear a burqa once they are married? Anything specific about them not being allowed to drive or anything specific about the husband given the green light to assault them if they have committed adultery etc.

Not being judgmental here, just want to know the facts from people who have actually read the Quran.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Please excuse my ignorance here as I am not very familiar with Islam (I was raised a catholic but am now pretty much Agnostic - moved from Catholic Light to - who I am I kidding, I am agnostic).

Anyway, to my question. Is there anything specific in the Quran about women. In other words, anything specific about them needing to wear a burqa once they are married? Anything specific about them not being allowed to drive or anything specific about the husband given the green light to assault them if they have committed adultery etc.

Not being judgmental here, just want to know the facts from people who have actually read the Quran.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html

- - - Updated - - -

Also, Turk and Ze, how do you interpret this verse?

4:59 "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end."

 

[Zé Tahir]

Have you started to twist words of Quran now?

''For you is your faith, and for me, my faith.'' It doesn't mean there are different versions of Islam.

109 : 1 - 6

Say, "O disbelievers,

I do not worship what you worship.

Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.

Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.

Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.

For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

----------------------------------

''There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion.''

That means there will be no forced convertions, doesn't mean a Muslim is free to act as he wishes.

Why don't you come out of the closet and say what you really believe. What do you think of Shia's that curse every caliph? What do you think of certain Shia's that have altered the Kalma Shahadah to include Hadhrat Ali? Would you not include them in 'O disbelievers'?

Where did 'acceptance of' come from? The key word is deen, faith. In any case, my point stands...why should someone have to 'accept' your religion?