Dependancy discussion (2 Viewers)

[sateeh]

++ [ originally posted by Jeeks ] ++


If the team is not depending on Paddy and Paddy alone, Giannichedda on the field should not show a big drop in the shape of the team. Other players should cover his "weaknesses". This is the whole issue, we depend on ONE player only. We are a team and players compose the team. Of course there are better players and those with heavier impact, but these should not be unique because this can be significant at their absence.

exactly ur spot on...
thats wat the players should dther players should take the leadership role.We have to work with wat we have instead of saying that capello made mistakes and moggi made mistakes by not bringing this player or another one.

For me , am very happy that we have only one loss and noo draws this season.This is an alarming issue, but the team isnt playing for the full extent of its potential and we are winning 3-0.And we didnt have many important players.
Real lost ronaldo and look how bad r they playing.. they r just depending on set-pieces.

 

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[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Bozi.78 ] ++
mikhail, were you watching the same player? sure in his last year he was not up to the same standards as he had set previously but he was trying to help nurture the youngsters such as fabregas in the team. look at arsenal this season and you will see how much his influence is missed.

Arsenal have been missing Henry, Ashley Cole, Lauren, Reyes, Campbell, Hleb, etc. for long spells so far this season. To say that their mediocre start to the season is down to them missing Vieira is a rather big assumption.

Yes, I'm talking about the same player, who I've watched play for many years. Sometimes he was spectacularly good, but not for many seasons. I'd go as far back as 02/03 to get to the last time I thought Arsenal depended on him.

 

[Holygr4le]

I have another theory…

It is not about the single player nor is it the leadership.
For Juve it is all about the pattern.

One of the strengths with Juve is the consistency.
Clear roles and objectives. The forfeits with this is that we truly are a machine. And it creates a safe environment where the players now exactly what the demands are.

The problem is when you have to work outside that frame.

We can use the examples in this thread or take any game we lost against a for the day stronger opponent. When for example Viera is away the other players work as they used to but with the absence of one player the system crashes. This does not mean we lack the players or possibilities to play good without a certain player, it does mean we are having problem adjusting cause the roles are so strict.

Look at Barca.
No lines, only creativity and adjustment for the moment. In the long run not that good but they can go from crappy to beautiful in 2 minutes. Not two games.

So if the players were told and understood they have to adjust and always keep a high level of paste we would have another picture.

 

[lestat_1987]

good point Holygr4le, this explains the Bayern game. Would you say we underestimated them?

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Jeeks ] ++


If the team is not depending on Paddy and Paddy alone, Giannichedda on the field should not show a big drop in the shape of the team. Other players should cover his "weaknesses". This is the whole issue, we depend on ONE player only. We are a team and players compose the team. Of course there are better players and those with heavier impact, but these should not be unique because this can be significant at their absence.

Well, unforunately when Giannichedda is on the pitch the difference is night and day. That leads me to believe we do not have a proper replacement for Vieira, a notion that coincides with Juventus being too dependant on this one respective player. You do not see the consequences of a player absence until he is off the pitch. If we had a stronger option in midfield the absence would obviously not be as noticable.

Also, it's very hard for the team to make up for weaknesses when the whole squad is accustomed to perfection in midfield with Vieira. Even Emerson does not look as good on the pitch without Vieira, however that is quite understandable.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Jeeks ] ++


And here is my question. Vieira was not with us last year, we won the league depending on other players. We purchased Vieira and in a matter of three games we started depending on him while the other "crucial" players of last season are not as important anymore. Why did we let ourselves get to this point? Why not rely on a set of four players that if one of them is missing the team can adapt to the loss and still perform in the same calibre?

We don't have Chelsea's budget to keep players on the bench of the same quality of the starters, and there are no teams like Chelsea anyway; however other teams seem to adapt better to a certain "important" player's absence.

To be honest the perfect team does not have to rely on any single player, however I do not think there is such a thing as a perfect team in football. The problem of not coping with player absences rests on shoulders of Capello...it's his job to field the correct players for every match and to advise the team to fit the conditions of the respective match.

I know we don't have the money to keep world class subs on the bench, however I think we could do slightly better than Giannichedda and Blasi.

 

[JCK]

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++


To be honest the perfect team does not have to rely on any single player, however I do not think there is such a thing as a perfect team in football. The problem of not coping with player absences rests on shoulders of Capello...it's his job to field the correct players for every match and to advise the team to fit the conditions of the respective match.

I know we don't have the money to keep world class subs on the bench, however I think we could do slightly better than Giannichedda and Blasi.

Exactly. Here I am blaming the coach to rely on one player. Lippi had that problem before but now with Capello it is being exaggerated. I think Mourinho and Magath at the moment are able to create a harmony in the team without relying on one player. They say that Chelsea have been winning and all the wins Lampard was playing. He might make an impact if he's absent but the team's shape will not drop drastically (the case of Giannichedda replacing Vieira).

I miss two main aspects in our team and these are causing this dependancy problem, harmony and variatioin. Our team lacks harmony and the blame goes on Capello; our team can have variation but Capello is a coward for not using it.

 

[sateeh]

well abt the chelsea thing and bayern.
Bayern have no soul without micheal Ballack.He has more impact than any player i have seen.When ballack was out ,yes they were winning.But they were lucky as hell.And they suffered their first defeat while ballack was away.

Chelsea without lampad mybe a very good team, but not the sameone.For myself i didnt see a game with no lampard in it.And i always watch Chelsea games(waiting for them to lose).Not since last year.Mourinho always plays with him and terry.I dont know wat u call that, but i think its depedency, and
to some THE GREATEST TEAM IN THE WORLD WITH THE GREAT COACH..

 

[Holygr4le]

++ [ originally posted by lestat_1987 ] ++
good point Holygr4le, this explains the Bayern game. Would you say we underestimated them?

Not just underestimate…
I would believe that Capello instructed the players and gave them a picture of how the game would evolve. Then when it looked nothing like they had been told or expected they had no plan B. I believe that this is a result of clear roles and that we didn’t fight enough for each other. As someone else mentioned in other teams it exist a player that makes the others wake up and take charge. As Lampard or even more Gerrard. We lack that kind of player.

But this was good for us. I´m having a hard time to se the scenario repet itself...

 

[lestat_1987]

sure, we needed to lose a game like this. but against bayern it really hurt. I had money on that game...guess it was something like a wake-up call

 

[rokkstar]

Interesting topic this.

First of all, I think all teams have a dependacy on a player or group of players. Namely your Ronaldinhos, Rooneys, Lampards, Zidanes, Zlatans even. To have your key players fit and maintain form all season long would be great if that were so easy.

I also acknowledge that the start of the season we became too 'vieira-dependant'. Just look at HOW the matches were played with and without him. The same thing applied to nedved during THAT season when we should have won the CL. I was mad when he was booked though I thot that juve had it in them to go and win it.

It is right to say that we should try to spread out the stress of the 'fortune-changer' of the team. We have a few; emo, zlatan, canna, neddy, camo, alex, zlatan, mutu even.

What if even paddy was playing, he was playing shite, should the rest of the team start following him and cockup as well??! nooo.....

Hell, I'm glad that we played 10 matches and won nine even ... this without the dependancy on Buffon ?!?

The thing here is managers / coaches have to strike the right balance when it comes to selecting players in certain games which in abject to murphy's law should produce the warranted result. That's why they have been payed so much to be the decision maker and guarantee success every time.

Capello has done this to some extent ( 'cept vs Bayern) .The vieira dependacy should not come into play if only the other Key Players were inspirational that night.

 

[Codino]

imagine when buffon comes back

 

[DelpieroForLife]

Easy... Sell Vieira to ManUtd as Tribalfootball.com suggests and we will have no Dependancy problem nor Dependancy discussion thread...

 

[tassard]

 

[Cronios]

I believe we are in a much better overall status that we used to be in Neddy's days,
i generaly agree with the theory holygr4le developed,
we have many valuable players that can make the difference
and instead of winning our independance to one we are depended to many more,
if we lack one of them we cant deliver as a group,
but i still prefere this,than expect from one player to do all the defending, creating the attack chances and even finish them!!as Neddy used to do.
And i dont believe we can afford further more alternative solutions,
our bench is more complete than ever,
if we can then we sould but if we cant our only sield is luck against injuries.