Defensive Midfield Postion .Is It a boon or a bane ? (1 Viewer)

[Jun-hide]

You need DM for

(1) Stopping opposition penetrating through the middle
(2) Stop counter attacks.

I don't people quite understand how difficult it is to make forward pass in professional game. The moment player receives the ball in advanced positon, you will see defensive midfielder swarming up opposition attackers, even if they don't necessarily win balls, they prevent easy balls going through to the opposition strikers and thus prevent chances.

I know this is cliche, but defense is really a team effort. You cant press down opposition by your own or for matter any individual world class DM. If you see closely, you will see 2 or 3 players moving in tandem to close down the opposition, and if they are good at it, they will normally push the ball down to the wingbacks. In modern game, even strikers are the first line of defence, and the entire gae plan is designed to prevent opposition playing passes, and receive possession in the dangerous area. In this respect, you can understand why coaches like Mourinho and Capello will play two defensive midfielders. Simply because, no matter how good you are individually, you cant cover the entire midfield on your own. But as Denco rightly mentions that normally means that you loose your own ability to hurt opposition and retain possession. If you have possession on your hand, and able to keep the shape of the team, then that means opposition cannot really hurt you since they don't have ball to do so in the first place. So paradoxically against a really good opposition I think having two DM is just downright suicidal pill because opposition can hurt you with swift ball movement. In an era, where little tug on the shirt, and dramatic simulation by players can earn to a yellow card, it is just impossible to play Catenaccio for 90mins.

Mind you Korea played with 3 DMs in Asian Cup. Kim Jung-Woo who plays for Nagoya is a DM for his club team. And guess what, they score grand total of 3 goals, and hence deservedly knocked out for not scoring a goal in knock-out phase.

 

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[tonykart]

If you want to understand how important a DM is (an I mean a good one, an average DM is worthless) just look at the CL games from last year. Look at Gattuso SHUT DOWN Ronaldo. He was running that guy over like he was a small child. Look at Mascherano's impact on the game. He was the only player in the Liverpool Midfield who was worth a damn. I was so happy when Liverpool started Alonso because although the guy is a stellar passer, he doesn't shut anything down. If they had Gerrard back or even Sissoko out to start the game, they could have done better.

Players like Kaka and Ronaldo require a team has at least 1 DM out there to stop them. Also, when you have a player like Kaka you can afford to play with 3 DM's like Milan did. Attacking play sounds good and is fun to watch, but Milan put 3 DM's out there and dominated Bayern Munich, Manchester United (hotest team at the time) and Liverpool. Like it or not, it is a position and soon a system that is coming into style.

 

[Jun-hide]

If you want to understand how important a DM is (an I mean a good one, an average DM is worthless) just look at the CL games from last year. Look at Gattuso SHUT DOWN Ronaldo. He was running that guy over like he was a small child. Look at Mascherano's impact on the game. He was the only player in the Liverpool Midfield who was worth a damn. I was so happy when Liverpool started Alonso because although the guy is a stellar passer, he doesn't shut anything down. If they had Gerrard back or even Sissoko out to start the game, they could have done better.

Players like Kaka and Ronaldo require a team has at least 1 DM out there to stop them. Also, when you have a player like Kaka you can afford to play with 3 DM's like Milan did. Attacking play sounds good and is fun to watch, but Milan put 3 DM's out there and dominated Bayern Munich, Manchester United (hotest team at the time) and Liverpool. Like it or not, it is a position and soon a system that is coming into style.

Milan doesnt play with 3 defensive midfielders. Pirlo can never be considered as one. Yes he works hard considering his stamina, but he is hardly defensive juggernauts. Only play that sits in front of back 4 is Ambrosini. And Ambrosini is pretty good passer by his own standard. Even Rino doesnt give away possession too easily. Beside they play diamond shape with plenty movement between their midfield, which puts less pressure on defensive midfielders to spread a ball and keep possession. In any case, Milan has to to sacrifice one of its strikers, to play such formation, which means that when they do put some balls into the box, they are not likely to score due to lack of numbers in the box.

It is really a matter of trade off. Of course every team needs a DM to anchor the team midfield. Its matter of tactical and psychological necessity. But I think with two in a standard 4-4-2 formation, you are stretching a bit, and 3 is downright suicidal, especially as Denco mentioned, you are better side. I feel defense is a team-effort. A wise choice is to have one DM and share the defensive work in the rest of the team. Even Ronaldo does he fair share of backtrack, and defensive duties due to the system he plays.

 

[tonykart]

Milan doesnt play with 3 defensive midfielders. Pirlo can never be considered as one. Yes he works hard considering his stamina, but he is hardly defensive juggernauts. Only play that sits in front of back 4 is Ambrosini. And Ambrosini is pretty good passer by his own standard. Even Rino doesnt give away possession too easily. Beside they play diamond shape with plenty movement between their midfield, which puts less pressure on defensive midfielders to spread a ball and keep possession. In any case, Milan has to to sacrifice one of its strikers, to play such formation, which means that when they do put some balls into the box, they are not likely to score due to lack of numbers in the box.

It is really a matter of trade off. Of course every team needs a DM to anchor the team midfield. Its matter of tactical and psychological necessity. But I think with two in a standard 4-4-2 formation, you are stretching a bit, and 3 is downright suicidal, especially as Denco mentioned, you are better side. I feel defense is a team-effort. A wise choice is to have one DM and share the defensive work in the rest of the team. Even Ronaldo does he fair share of backtrack, and defensive duties due to the system he plays.

I think I've had this debate with someone before. I consider Pirlo a DM like I consider Alonso a DM. Defense first. Cover the gaps. Move forward to support the attack. Not every DM is a destroyer. In the CL Pirlo, Gattuso and Ambrosini clearly played xtremely deep in the midfield. Pirlo would creep forward when Oddo drove the ball into the corner, but he never got up too far. Maybe you want to call Pirlo a CM to differenciate him from a player like Gattuso. But then you put him into a category with a Lampard and Gerrard, who I consider CM's and to me Pirlo is much more defensive.

I totally agree with the second paragraph. Defense need to be a team commitment. But, you still need ball winners on the pitch. I think it is crucial to have 1 destroyer out at all time (unless you are down late in the game). Two DM's work very well too (just because someone is a DM doesn't mean they have 0 skill). 3 DM's is extremely excessive, but when one of them is Pirlo, it isn't a problem.

On Juventus our best hope for a dominating destroyer is Nocerino. I think he is the only young players (save Chiellini) who should start. He is better than Zanetti(although Zanetti is a good solid player) and offers more than Almiron (since we have Tiago who is essentially the same player). Having a solid DM in a 442 allows the midfield more freedom to attack. it also allows your SB's to move more freely. A good DM, allows a team to be more "CREATIVE".

 

[denco]

Andrea pirlo is not a defensive midfielder, that position was created for him because he was not a good enough fantasista. He defends but he is not good at it. Alonso and Daniele De Rossi are not defensive midfielders. They help in defence but tackling is not their strongest point. There is no way Milan can play beautiful footballl with 3 dms, that would be playing gatusso, Brocchi and Ambrossini in the same team. A defensive midfielder is not capable of defence splitting passes like Pirlo and Alonso possess in their armoury. Unless you are just being generic and not beng specific then you are right,but if you are being specific, then there is no way that Pirlo and Alonso can be called defensive midfielders

 

[Seven]

Andrea pirlo is not a defensive midfielder, that position was created for him because he was not a good enough fantasista. He defends but he is not good at it. Alonso and Daniele De Rossi are not defensive midfielders. They help in defence but tackling is not their strongest point. There is no way Milan can play beautiful footballl with 3 dms, that would be playing gatusso, Brocchi and Ambrossini in the same team. A defensive midfielder is not capable of defence splitting passes like Pirlo and Alonso possess in their armoury. Unless you are just being generic and not beng specific then you are right,but if you are being specific, then there is no way that Pirlo and Alonso can be called defensive midfielders

That's just not true. It's a position many, many teams use these days. It has become impossible to be a true No.10 in today's game because you get eaten alive if you want to take your time to distribute balls deep in to opposition territory. It makes a lot more sense to let a controlling midfielder, of which Andrea Pirlo happens to be the best example, do just the same, only 15 metres earlier.

You are right when you say he's not a defensive midfielder though. It's a fairly new position in modern day football and I'd like to call it a controlling midfielder.

 

[denco]

True Number 10; there are still quiet a few players who can play that position comfortably. When his present position was created, Zidane was still about and he was a true number 10, as are Totti and Riquelme. Players like Diego, Deco, kaka and some others that I cannot think of are quite capable of playing the fantastita. Pirlo on the other hand just lacked a little bit in that department. He is more of a Guardiola, Xavi, Fabregas sort of player. They are very good visionaries but maybe not good enough to play as an advancing playmaker

 

[ararossi]

That's just not true. It's a position many, many teams use these days. It has become impossible to be a true No.10 in today's game because you get eaten alive if you want to take your time to distribute balls deep in to opposition territory. It makes a lot more sense to let a controlling midfielder, of which Andrea Pirlo happens to be the best example, do just the same, only 15 metres earlier.

You are right when you say he's not a defensive midfielder though. It's a fairly new position in modern day football and I'd like to call it a controlling midfielder.

Pirlo is great example of deep lying playmaker that dictates tempo, and there seem to be more players deployed like Pirlo in the current scenario , i look at Carrick at man U depolyed as such altough he does not have quality of Pirlo and Alonso for Liverpool at times and even veron for Argentina in the recently concluded Copa America.With this rise in this type of postion playing the opposing coaches would try to take out the deep lying midfielder by pressing or harassing when he has the ball or even assinging a man-marker to him, so that he cannot pull the strings limit the team attack play.

 

[ararossi]

You need DM for

(1) Stopping opposition penetrating through the middle
(2) Stop counter attacks.

I don't people quite understand how difficult it is to make forward pass in professional game. The moment player receives the ball in advanced positon, you will see defensive midfielder swarming up opposition attackers, even if they don't necessarily win balls, they prevent easy balls going through to the opposition strikers and thus prevent chances.

I know this is cliche, but defense is really a team effort. You cant press down opposition by your own or for matter any individual world class DM. If you see closely, you will see 2 or 3 players moving in tandem to close down the opposition, and if they are good at it, they will normally push the ball down to the wingbacks. In modern game, even strikers are the first line of defence, and the entire gae plan is designed to prevent opposition playing passes, and receive possession in the dangerous area. In this respect, you can understand why coaches like Mourinho and Capello will play two defensive midfielders. Simply because, no matter how good you are individually, you cant cover the entire midfield on your own. But as Denco rightly mentions that normally means that you loose your own ability to hurt opposition and retain possession. If you have possession on your hand, and able to keep the shape of the team, then that means opposition cannot really hurt you since they don't have ball to do so in the first place. So paradoxically against a really good opposition I think having two DM is just downright suicidal pill because opposition can hurt you with swift ball movement. In an era, where little tug on the shirt, and dramatic simulation by players can earn to a yellow card, it is just impossible to play Catenaccio for 90mins.

Mind you Korea played with 3 DMs in Asian Cup. Kim Jung-Woo who plays for Nagoya is a DM for his club team. And guess what, they score grand total of 3 goals, and hence deservedly knocked out for not scoring a goal in knock-out phase.

I like the point of pressing because the great Juventus team under Lippi's first era use to that often from attack to midfield to defence , also Milan team under Sacchi
and Capello when they lost possesion they would harry and harass and win back the ball.i Luv that kind of play. To work in that system u need your players to be of great fitness and work ethic and tactical discpline.

 

[metalhead]

Players like Lampard and Gerard are called CM or box to box players. Gattuso and Macherano types are called DM. Pirlo is called a deep lying playmaker.

They are defined by their major role in the team. Gattuso is a DM even if he attacks and shoots sometimes. Same with Pirlo, he is a deep creator even if he is required to defend along with that.

 

[edgardavids2608]

Milan are one of the few teams with the personel to play the formation they do. Playing three deep mids even if they ARE not all dms is difficult and you really have to have the top three players be very special. I think Seedorf was the MVP of Milan in the CL. Sure Kaka was brilliant but he couldnt do it by himself and Seedorf came up huge when they needed a goal. But I love to watch multiple dms it is amazing to watch a team controll the middle of the pitch. I prefer the player like Gattusoor Davids where they are pesky enough to never give up and quick enough to cover so much ground that it is almost annoying for the other team cause you cant avoid them. I think to not play at least one dm is quite stupid and any decent coach wouldnt put 0 dms on the field.

 

[Jun-hide]

I like the point of pressing because the great Juventus team under Lippi's first era use to that often from attack to midfield to defence , also Milan team under Sacchi
and Capello when they lost possesion they would harry and harass and win back the ball.i Luv that kind of play. To work in that system u need your players to be of great fitness and work ethic and tactical discpline.

Well lets put it this way, I am not a big fan of fitnessed based game. I have play the game from technical perspective, I was raised that way, and I see the game that way. I understand that in a modern game you got to be incredibly fit as a team to press opposition and win possession, but funnily enough the rule is being changed so that dribblers are benefiting more than ever, and I feel fantasistas in a different version will come back. I like watching Emerson play and analyzing his movements, but you know, if I am going to pay my money to watch the game, I want to enjoy Kaka's backhills, Ronaldinho's flicks, and Ronaldo's stepovers anyday of the week.

I have to agree with Denco's point. Pirlo is a fantasista who simply wasnt good enough to play No10 in a modern game. The reason is simple. Its not because of his vision, but the rule and the way game has changed. Everyone say Pirlo is nearest thing to Giannini Rivera legendary Milan No10. But in a modern game, I think good dribbler who can carry the ball and take pressure off his teammate is worth more than good passer. The reason is simple. Because FIFA has over the years made it hard for defenders to tackle attackers. A tackle in a box: Penalty. A tackle from behind: Yellow Card. Penetration is a key word of this day, and the reason Capello wont ever win European Cup again is he doesnt understand that the game has changed. I will bet my heart that Caniggia will score twenty goals a season in current Serie A, not because Serie A isnt as competitive as b4 (which they are not doubt inferior than Caniggia days) but the rule suits him now better than in the past.

Tony IMO hits the proverbial on the head. The important thing is not the position in which managers write player's position, but the ROLE players play. One way or other there are functions to be performed and players have to share responsibilities. Rino isnt your typical DM. IMO he is midfield dynamo. He doesnt sit back in front of defence with the whole purpose of breaking opposition. He is far more than that. If you DM cant find space to receive ball start off attack then it doesnt matter if you play 1DM, 2DM, or 3DM, you are going to struggle playing good game, and will have to hit a lot of long balls to forwards. That is problem with Korea. They havent got a good DM, who finds space and distribute passes. In a modern game, forwards will just sit in front of opposition DMs, so that CBs wont have easy out let pass. In other words, they want CB to hit long balls forward. What good DMs, Mascherano and Makelele in particular do well, is they find that a meter space or so to receive ball, quickly get rid of it, and reposition themselves to receive ball, and keep the flow of things. My problem with Capello is not so much 2 DM per se, but the players he used alongsde the system. Viera, Emerson CM, and Zlatan & Trez forward? Capello is loosing modern game IMO.

 

[tonykart]

Well lets put it this way, I am not a big fan of fitnessed based game. I have play the game from technical perspective, I was raised that way, and I see the game that way. I understand that in a modern game you got to be incredibly fit as a team to press opposition and win possession, but funnily enough the rule is being changed so that dribblers are benefiting more than ever, and I feel fantasistas in a different version will come back. I like watching Emerson play and analyzing his movements, but you know, if I am going to pay my money to watch the game, I want to enjoy Kaka's backhills, Ronaldinho's flicks, and Ronaldo's stepovers anyday of the week.

I have to agree with Denco's point. Pirlo is a fantasista who simply wasnt good enough to play No10 in a modern game. The reason is simple. Its not because of his vision, but the rule and the way game has changed. Everyone say Pirlo is nearest thing to Giannini Rivera legendary Milan No10. But in a modern game, I think good dribbler who can carry the ball and take pressure off his teammate is worth more than good passer. The reason is simple. Because FIFA has over the years made it hard for defenders to tackle attackers. A tackle in a box: Penalty. A tackle from behind: Yellow Card. Penetration is a key word of this day, and the reason Capello wont ever win European Cup again is he doesnt understand that the game has changed. I will bet my heart that Caniggia will score twenty goals a season in current Serie A, not because Serie A isnt as competitive as b4 (which they are not doubt inferior than Caniggia days) but the rule suits him now better than in the past.

Tony IMO hits the proverbial on the head. The important thing is not the position in which managers write player's position, but the ROLE players play. One way or other there are functions to be performed and players have to share responsibilities. Rino isnt your typical DM. IMO he is midfield dynamo. He doesnt sit back in front of defence with the whole purpose of breaking opposition. He is far more than that. If you DM cant find space to receive ball start off attack then it doesnt matter if you play 1DM, 2DM, or 3DM, you are going to struggle playing good game, and will have to hit a lot of long balls to forwards. That is problem with Korea. They havent got a good DM, who finds space and distribute passes. In a modern game, forwards will just sit in front of opposition DMs, so that CBs wont have easy out let pass. In other words, they want CB to hit long balls forward. What good DMs, Mascherano and Makelele in particular do well, is they find that a meter space or so to receive ball, quickly get rid of it, and reposition themselves to receive ball, and keep the flow of things. My problem with Capello is not so much 2 DM per se, but the players he used alongsde the system. Viera, Emerson CM, and Zlatan & Trez forward? Capello is loosing modern game IMO.

Excellent post.

 

[Bjerknes]

Listen, unless your team does not have enough skill to hold the ball, unless your defense is utterly worthless, unless you have fantastic attacking wingbacks who have no clue how to defend, you don't need more than one defensive midfielder. No way. The perfect system is having one defensive midfielder along with one two-way, good ball distributor who can make the passes that need to be made. Historical accounts have proven this, since Mario Zagallo's Brazil in 70 which was voted best side ever, even Arrigo Sacchi's Milan which changed the face of Italian football. All they fielded was one defensive midfielder along with two other skillfull, two-way players.

I cannot stand a midfield with two defensive midfielders because it just ruins the game. You sacrifice good possession for defensive in midfield, but history has demonstrated that possession and skill in midfield is more important than defensive solidity in midfield. We have seen this shit with Capello and many other managers alike, and it's just bad football. Really bad. There's no need for two defensive midfielders unless you have an absolute shit team, which I had in high school. We couldn't play worth a shit, but we won the State Championship because we couldn't control the ball well enough so we just stuck in defensive midfielders and me at sweeper. The tactics fucking suck, and we were lucky to win it. It's really the cheapest and ugliest way to win if you have a shit team.

 

[Bjerknes]

Well lets put it this way, I am not a big fan of fitnessed based game. I have play the game from technical perspective, I was raised that way, and I see the game that way. I understand that in a modern game you got to be incredibly fit as a team to press opposition and win possession, but funnily enough the rule is being changed so that dribblers are benefiting more than ever, and I feel fantasistas in a different version will come back. I like watching Emerson play and analyzing his movements, but you know, if I am going to pay my money to watch the game, I want to enjoy Kaka's backhills, Ronaldinho's flicks, and Ronaldo's stepovers anyday of the week.

The way the game is heading, I think fantasistas are becoming an endangered species. And the reason for that is because the Premiership is highly regarded as the best league in the world, and with their frantic style of play they really kill the beautiful game. That's probably why I can't fucking stand their marketers or even their hard-core fans... just like you I've been raised (by myself, that is) as a lover of beautiful, controlled football that has flair, beauty and genius. I've always been a natural playmaker myself. So it hurts me to see people indulge themselves in the Premier League nonsense because they love the fast-paced play and frantic goal side action. If I wanted to see a bunch of players running around at the greatest pace possible, making the hardest tackles ever, I would watch the fucking NFL. The EPL's style is ugly in my opinion and I can't appreciate ugly football.

If the EPL continues to gain popularity and more emphasis is put upon the physical attributes of the game, playmakers will unfortunately not find as many suitable situations as they once did. The faster and harder the play, the less time these players have the less time anybody has, so ball skill will eventually be equivilent to stamina and hardness in football. And when that day comes, it will be very sad because the best players in this world don't have the endurance of the Gattuso's or Nedved's. Hence my absolute hate for the EPL and their fast-paced, strength-based football. Apart from manure and Arsenal, ugly fucking shit in my opinion.

My problem with Capello is not so much 2 DM per se, but the players he used alongsde the system. Viera, Emerson CM, and Zlatan & Trez forward? Capello is loosing modern game IMO.

That's exactly right, Jun. My sentiments exactly. And we're right, too. Capello is just a lucky bastard garnering wins off of lackluster sides.

 

[Jun-hide]

The way the game is heading, I think fantasistas are becoming an endangered species. And the reason for that is because the Premiership is highly regarded as the best league in the world, and with their frantic style of play they really kill the beautiful game. That's probably why I can't fucking stand their marketers or even their hard-core fans... just like you I've been raised (by myself, that is) as a lover of beautiful, controlled football that has flair, beauty and genius. I've always been a natural playmaker myself. So it hurts me to see people indulge themselves in the Premier League nonsense because they love the fast-paced play and frantic goal side action. If I wanted to see a bunch of players running around at the greatest pace possible, making the hardest tackles ever, I would watch the fucking NFL. The EPL's style is ugly in my opinion and I can't appreciate ugly football.

If the EPL continues to gain popularity and more emphasis is put upon the physical attributes of the game, playmakers will unfortunately not find as many suitable situations as they once did. The faster and harder the play, the less time these players have the less time anybody has, so ball skill will eventually be equivilent to stamina and hardness in football. And when that day comes, it will be very sad because the best players in this world don't have the endurance of the Gattuso's or Nedved's. Hence my absolute hate for the EPL and their fast-paced, strength-based football. Apart from manure and Arsenal, ugly fucking shit in my opinion.



That's exactly right, Jun. My sentiments exactly. And we're right, too. Capello is just a lucky bastard garnering wins off of lackluster sides.

If you are talking about True No10. whose vision and through-balls are the main weapons then with the progression of EPL type games, we will no doubt see the death of fantasistas. I think everyone here should read comic "Fantasista" - It asks what the defintion of fantasista - and the author believes there isnt really one. IMO, we will see a new breed of creative players in a modern game, one based on dribbling, pace, and ultimately penetration. I have no doubts in my mind that in a modern game it is easier to cut off balls from passess than win it off from tackles. Because the protection attackers get compared to late 80s to early 90s, or even mid 90s for that matter, is unbelievable. Ronaldo and Kaka are the new types of that many future generations will follow IMO.

I honestly believe balanced approach to the game, which combine, physique, technique, pace, is the way forward. That probably means having only one type DM, and sharing the work-load amongst teammates. I really hope this is the case. Otherwise, if teams play two DMs, the coach is most likely to sacrifice a forward, and you know there is nothing I hate more than playing one up front. If you sacrifice the option of fantasista instead of forward, then the game looses fluidity and guile to entertain fans. I don't want games to be full of meaningless pretty passess around the box with no punch, or just a matter of brutal efficiency with no regards for entertainment. So I sincerely hope you are right Andy. Lets hope next generation, we will see more balanced approach to the game than just monotone run run run, that we are seeing since WC 2002.