Claudio Ranieri (43 Viewers)

[Amaurisimo]

You don't have to type it down , mr.Elvin

i felt it like, cos no one ever says good thing about him..

Even we saw just line up prediction where Gio supposed to play as RM, CR was already getting critics for playing him out of position. Than he got blamed for not playing Gio 90 mins even this one hardly could do much more and we have fresh legs in Nedved..And than, why we playing Marchioni, etc etc.. And critics about Brazzo who was one of better players yesterday, def. better than DP...Still..Man deserves not a credit but lots of it..

Trez should be benched for several games.

If he trains and than plays well, there is no better way to prove his worth and stick it to the CR..

Im sure he will play next game..

 

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[icemaη]

i felt it like, cos no one ever says good thing about him..

Even we saw just line up prediction where Gio supposed to play as RM, CR was already getting critics for playing him out of position. Than he got blamed for not playing Gio 90 mins even this one hardly could do much more and we have fresh legs in Nedved..And than, why we playing Marchioni, etc etc.. And critics about Brazzo who was one of better players yesterday, def. better than DP...Still..Man deserves not a credit but lots of it..



If he trains and than plays well, there is no better way to prove his worth and stick it to the CR..

Im sure he will play next game..

Thats not true... The rest I agree...

 

[Salvatore]

Trez should be benched for several games.

No.

 

[Amaurisimo]

Thats not true... The rest I agree...

Brazzo had 2 times more passes, run 3 times more and was active in defending as well in attack..
Just tell me how many times DP lost the ball? It's becoming irritating all those unsuccessful driblings etc..

 

[bianconero]

A great result and still the nit-picking.

 

[Amaurisimo]

same here

 

[denco]

Denco -

are you a Juve fan? or do you just watch Juve games because you can/have casual interest in Juve and Juve players?

It depends on what you mean by a Juve fan.

If you mean support anything from bad play to incompetence then the answer is no.

If you mean that I support the club and wants it to be the best in the world, voice my displeasure, tell things objectively as I see it then yes I am a fan.

Cronos, thanks for that and yes ignoring is mature and all that but I cannot ignore publicly being called a bigot

Here is a copy of his PM

I am really enjoying this
you arrogant bigot

He is not teasing there is something fundamentally wrong with him, sure he is an attention seeker and all of that but calling someone a bigot is very serious.

My lack of posts is because post calciopoli the standard of posts has deterioriated where there is so much talk of hating this player and that team that I could not be bothered with all of that.

Fred is one of the best posters around and he is not a juve fan, there used to be a couple of milan fans that made it more interesting but now the arguments you read are along the lines of forza juve, how do you argue with that 1?

Others like Dominic, who is also very good, hardly posts and even when he does it is too brief

I cannot speak for Paul but he did used to post socially in the movie section and that other thread that had a past world, forgotten what its called so he did interact.

I used to have the time in the past to interact in the movie thread but do not have the time to do so as there are more pressing things for me to do.

Then again a lot of people interact everyday and have done for years but still say nasty things to each other and i do not get that at all. It kind of takes away from my not socialisng, it has nothing to do with me thinking I am superior or aloof.

I know there are a few cliques here and there but it is usually just 3 or 4 ppl in a clique but for a forum and that is meant to be about ppl around the world coming together cos of juve, it does not feel like a close-knit family as the level of hatred in some posts towards each other is palpable.

You have far too many that act like victims whilst doing exactly what others have accused me and other of.

I am meant to be judgmental and act superior but I remember Alen saying 1 of my posts was illogical, tell me is that not passing judgment?

If i said that all hell would have broken loose. I mean what was illogical about the post, if a class only has 3 kids with over 50%, just because other classes have similar does not mean that that class is not poor?

But hey he is 1 of the good guys and by that I mean say positive things about Juventus no matter what backed up by stats like football is mathematics and not a sport where stats can be interpreted which ever way you like.

You voice your concerns but you are branded a hater of Ranieri and Molinaro when all you want is a better alternative

 

[bianconero]

It depends on what you mean by a Juve fan.

If you mean support anything from bad play to incompetence then the answer is no.

If you mean that I support the club and wants it to be the best in the world, voice my displeasure, tell things objectively as I see it then yes I am a fan.

Cronos, thanks for that and yes ignoring is mature and all that but I cannot ignore publicly being called a bigot

Here is a copy of his PM

I am really enjoying this
you arrogant bigot

He is not teasing there is something fundamentally wrong with him, sure he is an attention seeker and all of that but calling someone a bigot is very serious.

My lack of posts is because post calciopoli the standard of posts has deterioriated where there is so much talk of hating this player and that team that I could not be bothered with all of that.

Fred is one of the best posters around and he is not a juve fan, there used to be a couple of milan fans that made it more interesting but now the arguments you read are along the lines of forza juve, how do you argue with that 1?

Others like Dominic, who is also very good, hardly posts and even when he does it is too brief

I cannot speak for Paul but he did used to post socially in the movie section and that other thread that had a past world, forgotten what its called so he did interact.

I used to have the time in the past to interact in the movie thread but do not have the time to do so as there are more pressing things for me to do.

Then again a lot of people interact everyday and have done for years but still say nasty things to each other and i do not get that at all. It kind of takes away from my not socialisng, it has nothing to do with me thinking I am superior or aloof.

I know there are a few cliques here and there but it is usually just 3 or 4 ppl in a clique but for a forum and that is meant to be about ppl around the world coming together cos of juve, it does not feel like a close-knit family as the level of hatred in some posts towards each other is palpable.

You have far too many that act like victims whilst doing exactly what others have accused me and other of.

I am meant to be judgmental and act superior but I remember Alen saying 1 of my posts was illogical, tell me is that not passing judgment?

If i said that all hell would have broken loose. I mean what was illogical about the post, if a class only has 3 kids with over 50%, just because other classes have similar does not mean that that class is not poor?

But hey he is 1 of the good guys and by that I mean say positive things about Juventus no matter what backed up by stats like football is mathematics and not a sport where stats can be interpreted which ever way you like.

You voice your concerns but you are branded a hater of Ranieri and Molinaro when all you want is a better alternative

You make some interesting points.

I have to say I have never found you to be bigoted or insulting.
You make your points clearly and convincingly, and even when I disagree I, nevertheless, find them consistent and not without merit.

I also believe a public attack should be address publicly and not by pm. If somebody makes a claim, such as the one made against you, they should back it up with evidence or retract and appologies.

 

[Dostoevsky]

You should sort this out but not in this thread.

http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20978&page=34

 

[Alen]

It depends on what you mean by a Juve fan.

1. If you mean support anything from bad play to incompetence then the answer is no.

2. If you mean that I support the club and wants it to be the best in the world, voice my displeasure, tell things objectively as I see it then yes I am a fan.

You probably aren't even aware how much similar #1 is to #2.

#1 is wrong, of course.
#2 is right in theory, but in practice all i can see is criticizing everything, without taking the recent past of the club and the general situation in Italian football (and here i mean the financial situation most of all) in consideration.
You can't do that if you want to be taken seriously. It's just as wrong as saying "We were in serie B so it's ok to do bad now".

You, and everyone else here, will be taken seriously only when you'll be able to do what some members like Red are able to do, and that is to look at the whole picture, without ignoring certain parts of it, and make your final judgements only when you'll look at it from all angles.

You are not doing that and that's why many people disagree with you.
Of course, those people who only see the positives deserve the same criticism, but it's always easier to attack those who speak negative about the club. That's wrong, i know, but that's how it is.

I am meant to be judgmental and act superior but I remember Alen saying 1 of my posts was illogical, tell me is that not passing judgment?
If i said that all hell would have broken loose. I mean what was illogical about the post, if a class only has 3 kids with over 50%, just because other classes have similar does not mean that that class is not poor?

Come on now. I said that it's illogical only after i gave my reasons why i think it's illogical. You could have easily said the same about my reply if you gave reasons for that and i swear that i wouldn't have objected at all and i would've accepted your criticism if you proved me wrong.

But hey he is 1 of the good guys and by that I mean say positive things about Juventus no matter what backed up by stats like football is mathematics and not a sport where stats can be interpreted which ever way you like.

You voice your concerns but you are branded a hater of Ranieri and Molinaro when all you want is a better alternative

This is the second or third time you pick on me and my stats. Lets make it clear for you then once and for all.
I'm a historian. I work with facts, with stats, and i was teached for years how to do that.
Stats alone mean nothing. They're used only to strenghten your point and to make it more reliable.
I watch all our matches, without an exception. I also watch at least 2 more serie A matches per week, and even though it doesn't sound modest, i think that i do know the league very well.
So, i can easily say: This is wrong!. I can say "This is very good", "The defense has an awful season" , "The attack has a great season".
But i prefer to explain why do i think so, and unfortunately it can't be always done without using the help of the facts (in this case stats).

You also do that sometimes. You tried to do it in that post that i labelled illogical. You tried to make your point stronger by using numbers.
I really don't see why do you keep mentioning my stats and try to present me as someone who can't make his own judgement without using the help of the numbers.

 

[denco]

You probably aren't even aware how much similar #1 is to #2.

#1 is wrong, of course.
#2 is right in theory, but in practice all i can see is criticizing everything, without taking the recent past of the club and the general situation in Italian football (and here i mean the financial situation most of all) in consideration.
You can't do that if you want to be taken seriously. It's just as wrong as saying "We were in serie B so it's ok to do bad now".

You, and everyone else here, will be taken seriously only when you'll be able to do what some members like Red are able to do, and that is to look at the whole picture, without ignoring certain parts of it, and make your final judgements only when you'll look at it from all angles.

You are not doing that and that's why many people disagree with you.
Of course, those people who only see the positives deserve the same criticism, but it's always easier to attack those who speak negative about the club. That's wrong, i know, but that's how it is.



Come on now. I said that it's illogical only after i gave my reasons why i think it's illogical. You could have easily said the same about my reply if you gave reasons for that and i swear that i wouldn't have objected at all and i would've accepted your criticism if you proved me wrong.




This is the second or third time you pick on me and my stats. Lets make it clear for you then once and for all.
I'm a historian. I work with facts, with stats, and i was teached for years how to do that.
Stats alone mean nothing. They're used only to strenghten your point and to make it more reliable.
I watch all our matches, without an exception. I also watch at least 2 more serie A matches per week, and even though it doesn't sound modest, i think that i do know the league very well.
So, i can easily say: This is wrong!. I can say "This is very good", "The defense has an awful season" , "The attack has a great season".
But i prefer to explain why do i think so, and unfortunately it can't be always done without using the help of the facts (in this case stats).

You also do that sometimes. You tried to do it in that post that i labelled illogical. You tried to make your point stronger by using numbers.
I really don't see why do you keep mentioning my stats and try to present me as someone who can't make his own judgement without using the help of the numbers.

Let me tell you what I find fundamentally wrong with stats in football as in history facts are relevant and you should use em but we are talking football here.

Surely you know that if we took DP's free kick against Sampdoria where it hit the post and bar thats counted as shot off target whille a very weak shot is counted as on target, that is just wrong in my view.

Also amount of passes on target is just silly as passing the ball to someone next to you should not be counted as it irrelevant but they count them.

An assist is another fallacy cos sometimes the person was not actually aiming for the person who scored but he is still credited.

You seem to be a very good teacher and do not get me wrong I think you are very good but I hate stats and dislike it when people bring it up in analysing a game as it is open to interpretation by whichever way you want to and totally unreliable.

I did not criticise Juventus last season, the way we played or what Ranieri achieved, in fact I praised him but you cannot feel sorry for a side that spends all that money on 28 year old Amauri when you have 4 or 5 other strikers, all that money on poulsen when we have far too many defensive midfielders not to be criticised.

We keep making excuses with the economic situation but I was trying to make a point with Villareal, which you missed and Arsenal that you do not always have to buy big but have to buy right.

In Italy it is not just the finance it is the players they are buying that get me upset. If you were a Roma fan would you not be up in arms that Loria was brought tot he club, not to mention Arne Riise and Julio Baptista when they have a fantastic youth policy and always seem to unearth gems that they do not use.

Inter instead of concentrating on a creative midfielder as they have money blew it on Muntari cos they could not get Lampard.

Fiorentina got Gilardino which was a good idea but what did they want with Vargas when they have Gobbi and Pascal?

The midtable teams always seem to get good players but they are handicapped by refreeing decisions most of the time and that is why they will remain there.

I was reading Lazio are interested in Van Bommel, seriously whats all that about?

Italians are very talented at a very early age but not too many risks are taken on them instead money is wasted on experience with far less talent.

If Nedved is persuaded to stay 1 more year then I am gonna go there personally to slap whoever is responsible for that.

No Alen it is not easy to take our plight into consideration if we keep going for the wrong kind of player. Believe me if money was not spent on the likes of Andrade, Tiago, Almiron, Amauri and Poulsen then I would have been more sympathetic.

 

[Amaurisimo]

can you get out of my tread please

 

[Alen]

Let me tell you what I find fundamentally wrong with stats in football as in history facts are relevant and you should use em but we are talking football here.

Surely you know that if we took DP's free kick against Sampdoria where it hit the post and bar thats counted as shot off target whille a very weak shot is counted as on target, that is just wrong in my view.

Also amount of passes on target is just silly as passing the ball to someone next to you should not be counted as it irrelevant but they count them.

An assist is another fallacy cos sometimes the person was not actually aiming for the person who scored but he is still credited.

Your main point is correct. Stats alone can not give the true picture most of the time and they can be manipulated. But there is a sea of stats and if you know which ones to pick and how to use them, then you can surely make a good point with them.

I'll use this explanation. Lets say Cronios says that Sissoko is our best passer of the ball and he uses the official stats which indeed say that Sissoko has the highest number of successful passes in Juve.
The stats do say that, but is it correct?
There are three different lists. One is for overall passes, one is for passes in attack and the third one is for defensive passes. If you check you'll see that most of the passes Sissoko made are defensive ones when he passed the ball backwards or he passed it in midfield to the guy next to him. Also, if you check the total number of passes he made, you'll see that a huge number of them weren't successful passes and they were intercepted by the opponent players.
At the end you can conclude that Sissoko may have the highest number of successful passes, but most of them were easy defensive passes and huge number of the overall passes he made weren't successful.

This was an example of how the stats can give a false picture. Now i'll tell you how can you rightly use the stats and strenghten your point.

I say that passing the ball around is one of Juve's main weaknesses. Someone who watches Juve regularly will immediately agree but someone who doesn't may ask why do i think so.
Then i say that if you look at the standings about passes/succesfull passes here: http://sport.virgilio.it/calcio/serie-a/statistiche/squadre/passaggi-utili.html
you'll see how bad we are compared to the others.
Also, when i mention that our midfielder Sissoko is the guy with the highest number of passes (and still isn't even among top 30 passers in the league), that most of them were unsuccessful and that most of them were defensive passes, you will get a better picture how good passers the others are.

It's all about knowing which stats to use and how to use them.
Don't underestimate the stats. :smile:

 

[bianconero]

I like good old fashion eyes.

 

[denco]

I do not want to be pedantic but how did you use stats to strenghten your point?

Yes I get your point about Sissoko but I do not think you need stats to tell you that Sissoko cannot pass the ball and that Juventus as a team cannot pass the ball properly.

The fact that we try to be too direct like Inter does not help with the stats but for me thats not important.

From the stats, Milan, Inter, Roma and Atalanta are in the top 4, I have not seen much of Atalanta in a full game but from what I have seen they do pass the ball well without the end product.

Roma for me is the only side when they are on form that pass the ball with some purpose.

Milan used to have that but they now have far too many cooks while Inter never pass the ball with purpose for me, they just pass it around and though it is keeping possession, it is also killing the game.

Now if I was to interpret that stat in another way, I could say that those teams just keep possession by passing the ball sideways or backwards without doing much and there is no point in having possession if theres no end product.

I could also argue that with us being 2nd, you do not need possession as long as you have clinical players that score when they have the chance. The only problem with that is that it is good enough to come second or third in seriea but it will not win you the league and you stand little chanceof winning cl.

Barcelona are a prime example of what I feel having possession is all about as in most games they have 60% of possession and more often than not its going forward and beating sides not just passing the ball around just for the heck of it.

 

[Juve_fanatic]

Great job by Rannieri so far!!

 

[Alen]

I do not want to be pedantic but how did you use stats to strenghten your point?

Yes I get your point about Sissoko but I do not think you need stats to tell you that Sissoko cannot pass the ball and that Juventus as a team cannot pass the ball properly.

Those were just two examples to show how stats can be badly and well interpreted. Those were two very obvious cases where the "good old-fashioned eyes" are enough but in some cases things aren't as obvious and you need the right stats to help you.

 

[bianconero]

Brains, feel and instinct.

 

[Hist]

It depends on what you mean by a Juve fan.

If you mean support anything from bad play to incompetence then the answer is no.

If you mean that I support the club and wants it to be the best in the world, voice my displeasure, tell things objectively as I see it then yes I am a fan.

Tell me about it. I got flamed as soon as i joined this forum because i said Camo is not one of the Top 3 players in the world in his position and is rarely useful anymore.
I got the "NO WUT YU SAY I LUV CAMO U NOT JUVE LOVERZ IDIOT!!"
Alen and fred are two of the rare ones that actually support their arguments rather than discredit the opposing theories on no basis at all.
As soon as you point a view that is not popular you are labeled idiot or alex88(some guy they probably hated) or something like that.
And that's why i stopped coming here.

 

[bianconero]

Camo was never one of the three best players in the world in his position.