Hydde me and another poster discussed this months ago in Allegri thread and the link is there. Just not sure which page.
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Buy on AliExpress.com
Buy on AliExpress.com
@Hydde Get your reading glasses ready. I found it muchacho: http://www.juventuz.com/threads/40977-Massimiliano-Allegri?p=5511244&viewfull=1#post5511244
Yup, his number 10 is Dybala, Khedira the 8 and pjanic the 4
From his paper:
Usually, one of the two (traditionally, the number 10), must: Be able to create numerical superiority (getting by his marker) through dribbling. Know how to perfectly execute a pass. Have a good shot from afar. And above all, be able to push up the action quickly (verticalize) to be able to create positive chances for the three attackers to finish off
Compared to the number 10, the number 8 must: Have greater tactical qualities. Help out his midfielder companions more. Work in a more-measured way when the team doesn't have the ball. Help out the central midfielder to give balance to the team and to recover balls from the opposing side.Even if the number 8 has lesser technical qualities than his number 10 teammate, he must know how to accompany the play to be able to finish (a shot from outside the box). Number 8 is also a good header of the ball (for challenges on throw-ins and goal kicks) and is physically strong
From his paper:
Usually, one of the two (traditionally, the number 10), must: Be able to create numerical superiority (getting by his marker) through dribbling. Know how to perfectly execute a pass. Have a good shot from afar. And above all, be able to push up the action quickly (verticalize) to be able to create positive chances for the three attackers to finish off
Compared to the number 10, the number 8 must: Have greater tactical qualities. Help out his midfielder companions more. Work in a more-measured way when the team doesn't have the ball. Help out the central midfielder to give balance to the team and to recover balls from the opposing side.Even if the number 8 has lesser technical qualities than his number 10 teammate, he must know how to accompany the play to be able to finish (a shot from outside the box). Number 8 is also a good header of the ball (for challenges on throw-ins and goal kicks) and is physically strong
It fits the narrative, because the thesis talks mainly about 4-2-3-1 at that part, but in 4-3-3, the nr 10 is moved to the attack, and in 3 man "defensive" central midfield in 4-3-3 (compared to 4-2-3-1) where 3rd central midfielder is a pure nr 10 AM exploiting the channels between opponents defence and mid, the 3rd extra CM in 3 man midfield is there to add stability and hustle, or superiority in numbers and possession. Allegri's old thesis mentions most of these basics.
Thats also the reason Dybala was benched for so long when we started playing 4-3-3, because he couldnt figure out a way to fit him in, but now he has in this lopsided SS role were we play without an LW/make Sandro or Matuidi (latter almost becomes LM to balance having Dybala on pitch) push forward more there.
And nothing of that matters for what you originally said. For Juve, Pjanic cannot be a nr 10 when we have Dybala, and neither should he be, he is better as CM/regista, as we clearly have seen.
- - - Updated - - -
EXACTLY. Litterally the perfect b2b midfielder.
Thats also the reason Dybala was benched for so long when we started playing 4-3-3, because he couldnt figure out a way to fit him in, but now he has in this lopsided SS role were we play without an LW/make Sandro or Matuidi (latter almost becomes LM to balance having Dybala on pitch) push forward more there.
And nothing of that matters for what you originally said. For Juve, Pjanic cannot be a nr 10 when we have Dybala, and neither should he be, he is better as CM/regista, as we clearly have seen.
- - - Updated - - -
EXACTLY. Litterally the perfect b2b midfielder.
I havent read it all cuz of work, but from a quick peek, i still dont understand the khedira case.
He talks about the regista role which would be the 4, ok pjanic check...
Currently we have no number 10 on midfield. According to what he describes, a bernardeschi type would suit his needs there... as he is talking about someone who could push forward, find ways to set up the forwards and have a good shoot. But he is not using berna there.
The last spot is the 8... which supposedly is khedira. From what i see, framewise khedira has what he wants, but on the field he is noweher near the 8 he is talking about. The only thing khedira does is win headers... but he is not someone who will create numerical advantages with dribbles nor soemoen who would impose his physical presence and cover the 4 and 10. In fact, he is the contrary of that. He plays like a offensive midfielder but without playin like one.
In allegris set up, what i see is more of pjanic as the 4, matuidi as the 8 and khedira as the offensive mid. Imo khedira is the one who doesnt fit the 8 nor the 10 role who allegri describes.
For that reaSon, i feel that if marchisio is fit, we should try him more alongside matuidi and pjanic, as someone who would help distribute the ball and balance the midfield, while pjanic carries the major burden of making the play and matuidi the physical player.
If not, we can try a double physical mid with matuidi and sturaro flanking pjanic... just like we did vs udinese but pjanic instead or marchisio.
All this proposed combinations would suffice for me, but all this requires to bench khedira.
To finish this post.... I think that the midfield allegri would really love to try in a 433 would be:
PJanic as the regista number 4
POgba as the b2B dynamo, physical, pusher and with header prowess, the number 8
And someone like bernardeschi as the creative outlet who would 1v1 and shoot from afar or assist.
Imo taht would be his dream midfield according to his essay
He talks about the regista role which would be the 4, ok pjanic check...
Currently we have no number 10 on midfield. According to what he describes, a bernardeschi type would suit his needs there... as he is talking about someone who could push forward, find ways to set up the forwards and have a good shoot. But he is not using berna there.
The last spot is the 8... which supposedly is khedira. From what i see, framewise khedira has what he wants, but on the field he is noweher near the 8 he is talking about. The only thing khedira does is win headers... but he is not someone who will create numerical advantages with dribbles nor soemoen who would impose his physical presence and cover the 4 and 10. In fact, he is the contrary of that. He plays like a offensive midfielder but without playin like one.
In allegris set up, what i see is more of pjanic as the 4, matuidi as the 8 and khedira as the offensive mid. Imo khedira is the one who doesnt fit the 8 nor the 10 role who allegri describes.
For that reaSon, i feel that if marchisio is fit, we should try him more alongside matuidi and pjanic, as someone who would help distribute the ball and balance the midfield, while pjanic carries the major burden of making the play and matuidi the physical player.
If not, we can try a double physical mid with matuidi and sturaro flanking pjanic... just like we did vs udinese but pjanic instead or marchisio.
All this proposed combinations would suffice for me, but all this requires to bench khedira.
To finish this post.... I think that the midfield allegri would really love to try in a 433 would be:
PJanic as the regista number 4
POgba as the b2B dynamo, physical, pusher and with header prowess, the number 8
And someone like bernardeschi as the creative outlet who would 1v1 and shoot from afar or assist.
Imo taht would be his dream midfield according to his essay
Pjanic played 5 years as a RCM in Roma and before that as an AM for Lyon. He struggled the first couple of months here and did not find his feet before we moved to the two man mid, but that certainly does not mean ve cant play RCM or AM again. Its certainly worth a shot compared to having Matuidi, Sturaro and Khedira as two of our three mids.
In the thesis, Allegri clearly states that in a 4-3-3 the midfield 3 should be a 4,8 and 10. You are right that the number 10 in that system does not match Pjanic excatly but it matches him much better than a Matuidi.
In the thesis, Allegri clearly states that in a 4-3-3 the midfield 3 should be a 4,8 and 10. You are right that the number 10 in that system does not match Pjanic excatly but it matches him much better than a Matuidi.
@Hydde Khedira is a nr 8 for sure. He is just not a good one.
He uses him in that role because he is the only one in the squad that fits that charactericism for him. Khedira is physical presence, tactically aware/conservative, and runs forward with our without the ball on breaks, gets into the box to try to finish. Its all aspects of nr 8 he is fullfills for Allegri in basic terms.
He is not good at it any of it in particular...
But yeah it should defenitely clarify more why he is starting next to Pjanic or as 3rd CM, over Marchisio, because most likely Allegri sees Marchisio as too similar to Pjanic even if he is better defensively and more of a all around mid.
He uses him in that role because he is the only one in the squad that fits that charactericism for him. Khedira is physical presence, tactically aware/conservative, and runs forward with our without the ball on breaks, gets into the box to try to finish. Its all aspects of nr 8 he is fullfills for Allegri in basic terms.
He is not good at it any of it in particular...
But yeah it should defenitely clarify more why he is starting next to Pjanic or as 3rd CM, over Marchisio, because most likely Allegri sees Marchisio as too similar to Pjanic even if he is better defensively and more of a all around mid.
Have you guys seen how we defend with both Matuidi and Khedira on the pitch? It’s literally a 442 with Pjanic-Khedira in the middle, Costa on the right and HD upfront. Neither Dybala or Higuain are wide players, so the attack doesn’t fit what he showed in his thesis either. Dybala is the 10 when he plays, not the 7 or 11. those would be Matuidi and Costa
That was a 451\442 to me. Mandzu would defend wide and deep, then join Higuain in attack opening the left side for AS and Blaze. Matuidi and Khedira would take turns in pressing high when we don’t have the ball, which still leaves us with 4-4 players behind defending. But yes, we did play with two 8s without Dybala, simply because that was our best and most stabile midfield setup available. And I don’t think Max sees Pjanic as anything else than the deepest mid, said so when we 1st signed him and doubt anything changed
Khedira is bigger but not more physical. Marchisio is clearly better defensively. Khedira rarely tackles or intercepts. He's just very good at positioning, which Marchisio is very good at too.
Khedira is better in the air and that helps us with defending set pieces. But this season, with the addition of MDS and Matuidi, not sure Khedira's guaranteed spot is warranted for that one thing when Marchisio is the overall better player.
Yeah, Pjanic is defo our regista for present and future. Allegri groomed him in that role for 1.5 yr. Not gonna change now. Doesn't have to for Marchisio to play.
Khedira is better in the air and that helps us with defending set pieces. But this season, with the addition of MDS and Matuidi, not sure Khedira's guaranteed spot is warranted for that one thing when Marchisio is the overall better player.
Yeah, Pjanic is defo our regista for present and future. Allegri groomed him in that role for 1.5 yr. Not gonna change now. Doesn't have to for Marchisio to play.
