Charlie Hebdo massacre - 2015-Jan-07 (8 Viewers)

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
Don't know, I personally only take offense for matters that insult those I love or hold dear, especially if it's a curse which is defamatory and someone saying like 'go to hell' is hardly offensive.

Also whilst I'm no expert on all religions as far as am aware I don't believe any religion says one deserves it unless if he died living an evil and wretched life till his last breath. it's more to do with if you keep following the 'evil' path then it only leads to hell. So whilst a person is alive and has a choice then he still has a chance.
Well, I'm not sure about other religions, but a rather widespread interpretation of the bible claims that only the baptised can enter heaven, so that's certainly not really correct.
This was also basically seen as a fact in medieval times in Europe, which is why it was extremely important that newborns were baptised as soon as possible, and priests were called as soon as a woman entered labour. Infant mortality was extremely high as well, and should a newborn die without being baptised, it was thought that they wouldn't be able to enter heaven.
 

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PhRoZeN

Livin with Mediocre
Mar 29, 2006
15,843
No. In Christianity you can live an evil life, repent and go to heaven. If you live your life as a kind human being and are generous to everyone around you, but do not believe, you cannot ever go to heaven.

.

I think keyword there is belief. Why bother repenting for something you don't believe in? But if you actually believe in something then really nothing else should bother you. Followers of different religions would each say to other that based on their belief they are on there way to hell yet it's hardly affected a religious believer so I don't see why it should bother you unless you feel a need to believe?
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,188
I think keyword there is belief. Why bother repenting for something you don't believe in? But if you actually believe in something then really nothing else should bother you. Followers of different religions would each say to other that based on their belief they are on there way to hell yet it's hardly affected a religious believer so I don't see why it should bother you unless you feel a need to believe?

It's not about whether or not I think there's any truth to it.

But I do find it offensive that there are people on this Earth who think I deserve eternal damnation. That's well worse than wishing someone dead and we all think that's offensive.

What I'm saying is: how can you be offended by a cartoon, yet at the same time think it's not offensive to say people deserve eternity in hell?
 

Lapa

FLY, EAGLES FLY
Sep 29, 2008
19,949
Muslims, ohh Muslims. Been following the news past years and all the news are about Muslims. Muslims killing, raping, just acting like morons.

I lost my hope for humanity a long time ago, but I lost my hope with Muslims way before that. We should start a new holocaust and kill all the Muslims. We wouldn't need to read about suicide bombings anymore, no attacks because of some fucking cartoons made of Muhammed or whatever that fuck is called. And there would be 1,3 billion people less on earth. Sounds like a good deal for me.

No hard feelings Muslims here...just saying. :beer: :D

(I wouldn't stop there, all other religious people would be next).
 

Azzurri7

Pinturicchio
Moderator
Dec 16, 2003
72,692
It's not about whether or not I think there's any truth to it.

But I do find it offensive that there are people on this Earth who think I deserve eternal damnation. That's well worse than wishing someone dead and we all think that's offensive.

What I'm saying is: how can you be offended by a cartoon, yet at the same time think it's not offensive to say people deserve eternity in hell?
Because the existence of Hell is mentioned in Qur'aan, makes sense no? :D
 

Snoop

Sabet is a nasty virgin
Oct 2, 2001
28,186
Don't know, I personally only take offense for matters that insult those I love or hold dear, especially if it's a curse which is defamatory and someone saying like 'go to hell' is hardly offensive.

Also whilst I'm no expert on all religions as far as am aware I don't believe any religion says one deserves it unless if he died living an evil and wretched life till his last breath. it's more to do with if you keep following the 'evil' path then it only leads to hell. So whilst a person is alive and has a choice then he still has a chance.
In Christianity, if you are not baptized, you won't go to heaven!
In Islam, if you are a Christian, you are a kafir, because you think Jesus is god! Atheists go to hell automatically..

I don't know about Judaism, but I believe it's the same shit different color..

In the end, we are all going to hell, according to god (logically if you look at Quraan and Bible, what I mentioned above)! he doesn't like anyone :(
 

PhRoZeN

Livin with Mediocre
Mar 29, 2006
15,843
It's not about whether or not I think there's any truth to it.

But I do find it offensive that there are people on this Earth who think I deserve eternal damnation. That's well worse than wishing someone dead and we all think that's offensive.

What I'm saying is: how can you be offended by a cartoon, yet at the same time think it's not offensive to say people deserve eternity in hell?

Thought it was common knowledge but prophet Muhammad saw is loved and cherished by billions of Muslims more than themselves and those closest to them. In other words offending him is as offensive you can probably ever get against Muslims. So you can swear, defame, kill, torture, ridicule or say whatever you want against a muslim.. but nothing ever is more offensive to him than ridiculing the prophet, even though sadly a small minority have wrongly taken their offense towards violence.

Now that I've drawn the picture,you gotta admit one thing the billions of muslims have some tolerance.

Sorry might just be me but I still fail to recognize how you could find hell offensive, if you don't even have slight believe in it. I mean what do others think?
 

PhRoZeN

Livin with Mediocre
Mar 29, 2006
15,843
In Christianity, if you are not baptized, you won't go to heaven!
In Islam, if you are a Christian, you are a kafir, because you think Jesus is god! Atheists go to hell automatically..

I don't know about Judaism, but I believe it's the same $#@! different color..

In the end, we are all going to hell, according to god (logically if you look at Quraan and Bible, what I mentioned above)! he doesn't like anyone :(
Or maybe its your job to find the right religion and save yourself?

50 cent spin ' get rich or die tryin'.
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
Great article. Read it. @Turk 1.4, you should read it too.

From Teenage Angst to Jihad

Something snapped. I was 13 years old, dreaming of books and girls and nothing else — a healthy Dutch kid with a Moroccan background who freewheeled through life. Then something happened that made me feel different from the pack. One day in history class, the fatwa against Salman Rushdie became the subject. Our teacher talked about freedom of expression; I talked about insulting the Prophet. There was an awkward silence. What was that Abdelkader guy talking about? Fatwhat?

But our teacher, Mr. Fok, understood me. He claimed the fatwa didn’t make sense. How could somebody be offended by fiction? How could using one’s imagination lead to the death sentence?

I remember standing up, my voice rising as I struggled to make an argument about the holiness of the Prophet to me and my community. And the more Mr. Fok responded with cold and rational analysis the angrier I got. Didn’t he get that this was about more than reason and common sense? Didn’t he get that mocking the Prophet was a moral crime?

My classmates looked at me like a madman. By then I was standing and shouting. I’d never felt such anger before. This wasn’t about a novel, this was about me. About us. I wanted revenge. Mr. Fok just looked at me, amazed by my temper and a bit annoyed, and dismissed me from class. For the first time in my life I felt what it meant to be Muslim. I didn’t want to feel that way. I wanted to blend in, to look normal like the other kids in my class. After the frustration and anger ebbed, I felt shame — for letting my religion down, letting my family down, letting myself down. Shame for an anger I didn’t understand. I grew up in a relatively traditional Moroccan family. We observed Ramadan but my father rarely went to the mosque. There were two books in our house, the Quran and the phone book. We never looked at either of them. We didn’t talk much about the fatwa but it was impossible to ignore. Muslims were marching through the streets of Rotterdam. It was the first time we felt seen as part of a community that had questions to answer: Which side are you on? Why are you offended? Where does this anger come from? Can Islam coexist with Western values? The world didn’t stop reminding me I was a Muslim. My name, my background, my skin, my family and the events unfolding in the world all led to more self-questioning.

Islam told me God is One and the Prophet is his messenger. Adhere to the five pillars and all will be well. But we were living in a non-Muslim country. But I wasn’t Dutch, nor was I secular. I had to find a way to reconcile my religious background with a secular world. I felt orphaned.

And resolving that dilemma is much harder in a secular society that seems to have stopped struggling with these big questions altogether.

In the end, I didn’t find the answers in holy texts. I found them in literature.

I read Kafka’s “Metamorphosis” and Camus’ “The Plague.” I thought back on my younger days lashing out against “The Satanic Verses.” I remembered sneaking into a bookshop and seeing the book piled up ready to be read but my English was insufficient to understand it. The book turned me away; the curiosity stayed.

When I was 17, I found “The Satanic Verses” tucked away in a school library. I grabbed it, started reading and was mesmerized. Here was a young man struggling with his faith in a faithless world — an immigrant son from a deeply religious home thrown into a world where everything is embraced and nothing is sacred. It confirmed what I had felt deep inside: a free and open society is a threat to religious people. Their religion will be mocked — sometimes even suppressed — and this will provoke anger.

And now it’s happening again. The rise of extremists who lure young Muslims in the West with visions of Islamic utopia is creating nausea among European Muslims. Boys and girls are leaving their families and being converted into killing machines. They are leaving not from Baghdad but from Brussels and The Hague. We insist that this can’t be our Islam and if this is Islam we don’t want it. But I know from my own experience that the lure of extremism can be very powerful when you grow up in a world where the media and everyone around you seems to mock and insult your culture.

And European governments are not helping fight extremism by giving in to Islamophobia cooked up by right-wing populists. What I see is a lack of courage to embrace the Muslims of Europe as genuinely European — as citizens like everyone else.

One of the first people the terrorists in Paris killed was one of us: Mustapha Ourrad, an Algerian-born copy editor at Charlie Hebdo. Then they killed another Muslim: the police officer, Ahmed Merabet. The killers didn’t take mercy on them. In the name of Islam they killed Muslims. And every time a European Muslim sees that image of Mr. Merabet’s last moments, he sees himself lying there on the cold pavement. Helpless. And the next question will be: What will I say tomorrow at work or at school? What happened last week is not about lack of humor, or a failure to understand caricature. Nor is it about hatred of the West. It’s about anger taking a wrong turn.

What makes us human and creative is our doubt. But doubt on its own can turn into anger and fundamentalism. As the French writer Michel Houellebecq said in an interview: “People cannot live without God. Life becomes unbearable.” The terrorists found their God in a godless society. Charlie Hebdo mocked their God by declaring him nothing more than a cartoon. They came back to rescue their God and left 12 dead behind. They fell prey to a powerful delusion. It was the same delusion I felt as a teenager: that by attacking the messenger your anger will disappear and you will be victorious. But the only way to conquer your anger is to understand where its roots lie. For me the freedom to doubt, to not choose sides and to feel empathy for characters and people with whom I disagree was liberating. Today I still embrace my Islamic background, but without the dogma, repression and strict adherence to ritual. Since 9/11, so many European Muslims have also doubted their belonging. Do they belong to the Paris of Voltaire or the Mecca of Muhammad? It’s the wrong question. Muslims are every bit as European as the Roma, gays, intellectuals, farmers and factory workers. We have been in Europe for centuries and politicians and the press must stop acting is if we arrived yesterday. We are here to stay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/opinion/the-anger-of-europes-young-marginalized-muslims.html?_r=0
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,188
Thought it was common knowledge but prophet Muhammad saw is loved and cherished by billions of Muslims more than themselves and those closest to them. In other words offending him is as offensive you can probably ever get against Muslims. So you can swear, defame, kill, torture, ridicule or say whatever you want against a muslim.. but nothing ever is more offensive to him than ridiculing the prophet, even though sadly a small minority have wrongly taken their offense towards violence.

Now that I've drawn the picture,you gotta admit one thing the billions of muslims have some tolerance.

Sorry might just be me but I still fail to recognize how you could find hell offensive, if you don't even have slight believe in it. I mean what do others think?
There is a big difference between drawing a funny picture and saying one should spend eternity in hell. Surely the latter is far more offensive.

And if it doesn't matter what other people believe, why are you so offended when a non-believer draws Mohammed?
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
There is a big difference between drawing a funny picture and saying one should spend eternity in hell. Surely the latter is far more offensive.

And if it doesn't matter what other people believe, why are you so offended when a non-believer draws Mohammed?
I get what you're trying to say, but:
1.) It's not really "drawing a funny picture" as much as vulgarly insulting someone's mother is "talking to someone".
2.) They are, in their large majority, not thinking that you should go to hell, or that you deserve to go to hell. In their belief, it just is like that, almost like a natural law. That's often also where the idea of a religion encouraging their followers to convert other people comes from, they want to save them by showing them the, in their opinion, right way.
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
There is a big difference between drawing a funny picture and saying one should spend eternity in hell. Surely the latter is far more offensive.

And if it doesn't matter what other people believe, why are you so offended when a non-believer draws Mohammed?
Come on, why would you give a damn? I have maintained family and friendship ties with those who believe I'll burn in hell :wine:
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,188
I get what you're trying to say, but:
1.) It's not really "drawing a funny picture" as much as vulgarly insulting someone's mother is "talking to someone".
2.) They are, in their large majority, not thinking that you should go to hell, or that you deserve to go to hell. In their belief, it just is like that, almost like a natural law. That's often also where the idea of a religion encouraging their followers to convert other people comes from, they want to save them by showing them the, in their opinion, right way.
Come on, why would you give a damn? I have maintained family and friendship ties with those who believe I'll burn in hell :wine:
I understand what you're saying and of course I don't really give a damn. It is just that surely it could be considered offensive?

I also think it's weird to compare Muhammad to your mother. Your mom is not around when she's insulted and she cannot defend herself. Muhammad is backed up by God. Surely God will take care of it? Why would you need to fight his battles for him?
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
I understand what you're saying and of course I don't really give a damn. It is just that surely it could be considered offensive?

I also think it's weird to compare Muhammad to your mother. Your mom is not around when she's insulted and she cannot defend herself. Muhammad is backed up by God. Surely God will take care of it? Why would you need to fight his battles for him?
I'm not comparing Mohammed to your mother, but for a non-religous person (myself included), it's kinda hard to understand why someone might get insulted over an insult to a prophet. Can't really think of a better comparison tbh.
And I don't think that your mother not being around to defend herself isn't the real reason why someone would take a maternal insult as a offensive to himself as well :p
 

Snoop

Sabet is a nasty virgin
Oct 2, 2001
28,186
Or maybe its your job to find the right religion and save yourself?

50 cent spin ' get rich or die tryin'.
Religions are bullshit and make no sense! I won't go and try to find what religion suits me, I am a free human, not a slave, I refuse to be a slave or someone's toy, otherwise I wouldn't respect myself! I will live the way I see it is right and fair, even if there is god and he will burn me in the end.. I wouldn't worship anyone who burns his slaves because they don't obey him..


Seriously, it's funny that people still believe in these craps, and are afraid to question it..


As for the right religion thing, if I had to pick, Islam will definitely be the last religion I would pick! No offense to anyone..
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
Religions I believe are still good for the most part, helping both the individual and the society on many circumstances. Should be distanced from political systems though.
 

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