[Champions League] Bayern München vs JUVENTUS (April 2, 2013) (18 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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I watched the game so I commented on the situation when i saw that quite a few people were calling it a "clear" offside and some even implied Juve got shafted, which I didn't and don't agree with given how close the call was. Unlike quite a few people here, I don't make it the purpose of my life to vilify one team or make another look like an angel fallen from heaven.
discuss serie a with whom? people who before they have even seen the situation closely enough have already formed an opinion about it? Or would magnify every call that goes Milan's way but completely disregard the others e.g. the Lazio, Genoa games? Or are nowhere to be seen when a call goes Juve's way? thanks but I have better things to do than talking to a wall.
For the record, I am not saying everyone here is that way, not even close, but people here who actually have the ability to stay impartial tend to keep away from discussions when they know their opinion is bound to be an unpopular one around here. So, I would be basically left "duscussing" with people who "clearly" saw that Muller was offside (when even a camera still shot couldn't confirm that with certainty) or who think there was no PK vs Sanchez in the PSG-Barca game when the contact is plenty evident, etc, etc. Thanks but no thanks.
discuss serie a with whom? people who before they have even seen the situation closely enough have already formed an opinion about it? Or would magnify every call that goes Milan's way but completely disregard the others e.g. the Lazio, Genoa games? Or are nowhere to be seen when a call goes Juve's way? thanks but I have better things to do than talking to a wall.
For the record, I am not saying everyone here is that way, not even close, but people here who actually have the ability to stay impartial tend to keep away from discussions when they know their opinion is bound to be an unpopular one around here. So, I would be basically left "duscussing" with people who "clearly" saw that Muller was offside (when even a camera still shot couldn't confirm that with certainty) or who think there was no PK vs Sanchez in the PSG-Barca game when the contact is plenty evident, etc, etc. Thanks but no thanks.
I know what you mean and I don't disagree with you.
Just wanted to check why the Serie A thread is lacking your valuable input. It is a little boring when the only AC Milan fan balancing the discussion is missing.
The forum naturally is quite hostile towards your team but you shouldn't make much of it. Especially when sometimes even you, mr. objectivity can be just as biased as the most anti-Milan members around here.
yeah, of course Mandzukic, not Muller - my bad
I disagree, however, on the "definite" part in your statement. Even from that still shot Alexx 444 posted earlier here, one cannot say with certainty if the defender's trailing foot (part of the body) was in line or slightly behind the vertical line of Mandzukic's head. It may have been an offside but even then it would be so close that there was hardly anything definite about it even on that capture, let alone in real time.
Hence my point that it was rightfully given advantage to the forward, as per the rules.
I disagree, however, on the "definite" part in your statement. Even from that still shot Alexx 444 posted earlier here, one cannot say with certainty if the defender's trailing foot (part of the body) was in line or slightly behind the vertical line of Mandzukic's head. It may have been an offside but even then it would be so close that there was hardly anything definite about it even on that capture, let alone in real time.
Hence my point that it was rightfully given advantage to the forward, as per the rules.
I know what you mean and I don't disagree with you.
Just wanted to check why the Serie A thread is lacking your valuable input. It is a little boring when the only AC Milan fan balancing the discussion is missing.
The forum naturally is quite hostile towards your team but you shouldn't make much of it. Especially when sometimes even you, mr. objectivity can be just as biased as the most anti-Milan members around here.
Just wanted to check why the Serie A thread is lacking your valuable input. It is a little boring when the only AC Milan fan balancing the discussion is missing.
The forum naturally is quite hostile towards your team but you shouldn't make much of it. Especially when sometimes even you, mr. objectivity can be just as biased as the most anti-Milan members around here.
... as for the rest, what I may have to say would go in one ear and out the other, so to speak, so hardly any point of that considering it's a rinse and repeat exercise I don't expect people here to be loving Milan but I don't agree that one's dislike or even hate for something is an excuse for lack of objectivity and/or basic rationale.
I didn't realize and don't think I had specified the need for Matri and Quagliarella against solely the big teams in the CL (though I suspect you will now spend an hour or three finding quotes, putting them together, and aiming them towards me like an aspiring virtual machiavelli), and I have stuck to many points alongside my desire to see Quags and Matri together up top for us. Nothing of that has changed with the Bayern defeat. I thought and still think that my passage quoted by you is very, very clear to understand.
Just for you, Alen ,I will expand upon my brief analysis of the Munchen game, incorporating the strike force.
My major problem with our performance was first and foremost Marchisio. Before Conte's arrival at the club Claudio had a terrible habit of ghosting through games, of vanishing after kick-off and failing to impose himself on the game in any meaningful way. This was happening in Serie A, and was a problem for us, as it often seemed like we were playing with 10 men from the start. As with my campaign for greater inclusion in the starting XI of Matri and Quags, I was consistent with my concerns and criticism of Marchisio in that period, which was lengthy. With Conte's arrival, Claudio stepped up a level, not so much with la nazionale (which is telling) but with Juve, alongside Pirlo and Vidal, he became part of a much celebrated midfield triumvirate.
Vucinic and Giovinco appeared (against Munchen) when the game was already well lost, we had minutes before conceded a second, the traffic was one way. Munich weren't particularly bothered about changing their game plan to deal with the threat of a trequartista and second striker, and despite a couple of efforts by Vidal, a pass or two by Vucinic, the end result was the same. Had Beltrame and Padovan appeared in place of Matri and Quags I would have expected a similar brief injection of energy and eagerness. Thats one of the main reasons to make substitutions. Fresh blood into the battle...
Matri and Quagliarella naturally play higher up the field than a trequartista/attacking midfielder (mirko) and second striker (gio). Since they play higher up the field they rely more heavily upon solid service from and through the midfield. Our midfield of three showed only two players for most of the match. Vidal and Pirlo were both as well hustled, as well marked, as well tackled as Marchisio, but unlike Marchiso, both of them, especially Vidal, imposed themselves on the game. Arturo was our greatest asset in the defensive midfield region and our greatest asset going forward. Pirlo's workload was enormous. Peluso had almost non existent support from Marchisio meaning Pirlo had to more than muck in now and then, he had to basically play Marchisio and Pirlo in one. Which Vidal could probably have a decent stab at, but a near to 34 year old regista never renowned for his pace and stamina???? Too much was asked of him, and it showed. Parallal the lack of Marchisio alongside Peluso with the ubiquitous presence of Vidal in the final third, in the middle and nearby Lichsteiner...
The pressing of our three centrebacks by Bayern required far more of Marchisio, both defensively and offensively. For me, his return to wearing the invisibility cloak cost us any chance of success. It also cost Matri and Quags any chance of finding space and goalscoring opportunities. If Pirlo is deep lying, Vidal on the surface of things more defensively inclined, then Marchisio has the job of offering the strongest support from the midfield trio to the attack. He offered nothing. I think its fair to say it was his worst performance of the Conte era, and whilst I still think he is a wonderful footballer, once again, I am starting to doubt his self confidence if not his ability to impose himself against top class opposition.
Stick Llorente in that attack in place of Matri and I can't see a different outcome.
I haven't mentioned the attack because they were starved, they were leaves without sunshine, roots without water. And their replacements didn't do much more than offer a brief injection of fresh energy, and certainly didnt leave me concluding that 'if only we had started with them instead!'.
I am unsure as to why you have this fetish for trying to trip me up, but I cannot see how I can be tripped up by an accusation of unfairness, when my views on Matri and Quagliarella haven't changed. Our most major signing of the Summer so far is a prima punta. Our second major signing will likely be a second striker Sanchez or Jovetic or even Muriel. Leading us towards a prima punta/second striker combination. I hope so! But in terms of my preferred striker combination, I'd say Matri and Quags...who have been given barely 3 games starting together (?).
Our complete capitulation of Marchisio led to problems all over the pitch...stretched midfield (2 players playing for 3), stretched defence, cut-off service to attack. A team can carry one player fully off his game maximum against mediocre oppostion, but not in the centre of a midfield 3 in a 3-5-2 away to Munich.
I have been wondering with increasing interest, how we can fit Pogba into our starting XI. With a forward line lacking quality, as I have said before, as everyone has said, its important to have some creativity in midfield, hence Pirlo. Whether he continues another year or so or is replaced sooner, I assume we will remain creative in the middle. Which leaves Vidal or Marchisio positions for Pogba to aim for. The argument for Claudio to be challenged for that spot by the young frenchman has just grown a little louder in volume and reason. And before you attack me for a knee-jerk reaction, I am talking of our future, not now. Next season for example. Let me hope I am wrong about Claudio, and that he improves at international level, and Conte can help him move past this seemingly malignant problem of bottling it on the biggest of stages...of vanishing. What is for sure, is that when I, the commentators and many other fans hardly notice one of our three central midfielders throughout a match, there is something to be discussed. When the player in question has shown similar behaviour in the past, the question appears of...Can Marchisio handle the pressure of facing the true giants of the game??
There were other reasons for the mauling in munich. Buffon made an error or two which proved costly, yet he also kept out several certain goalbound strikes. Barzagli was flustered, bonucci too wasteful in possession, pirlo too reliant on fouls been called that never came and losing the ball in terrbile positions, peluso was out of his depth. I can't see how Matri and quags could have done much more unless they dropped deep into midfield leading us to a 3-6 formation (no marchisio). The weakest link was Marchisio, because he simply didn't manage to provide a link in the team, in any way whatsoever...those midfield three are essential to our 3-5-2, more essential than any other area for they dictate the tempo, create the attacks, cover the defence, own the ball. if one of them is absent, its too much work for two. Well, I hope that satsifies your curiosity...
Just for you, Alen ,I will expand upon my brief analysis of the Munchen game, incorporating the strike force.
My major problem with our performance was first and foremost Marchisio. Before Conte's arrival at the club Claudio had a terrible habit of ghosting through games, of vanishing after kick-off and failing to impose himself on the game in any meaningful way. This was happening in Serie A, and was a problem for us, as it often seemed like we were playing with 10 men from the start. As with my campaign for greater inclusion in the starting XI of Matri and Quags, I was consistent with my concerns and criticism of Marchisio in that period, which was lengthy. With Conte's arrival, Claudio stepped up a level, not so much with la nazionale (which is telling) but with Juve, alongside Pirlo and Vidal, he became part of a much celebrated midfield triumvirate.
Vucinic and Giovinco appeared (against Munchen) when the game was already well lost, we had minutes before conceded a second, the traffic was one way. Munich weren't particularly bothered about changing their game plan to deal with the threat of a trequartista and second striker, and despite a couple of efforts by Vidal, a pass or two by Vucinic, the end result was the same. Had Beltrame and Padovan appeared in place of Matri and Quags I would have expected a similar brief injection of energy and eagerness. Thats one of the main reasons to make substitutions. Fresh blood into the battle...
Matri and Quagliarella naturally play higher up the field than a trequartista/attacking midfielder (mirko) and second striker (gio). Since they play higher up the field they rely more heavily upon solid service from and through the midfield. Our midfield of three showed only two players for most of the match. Vidal and Pirlo were both as well hustled, as well marked, as well tackled as Marchisio, but unlike Marchiso, both of them, especially Vidal, imposed themselves on the game. Arturo was our greatest asset in the defensive midfield region and our greatest asset going forward. Pirlo's workload was enormous. Peluso had almost non existent support from Marchisio meaning Pirlo had to more than muck in now and then, he had to basically play Marchisio and Pirlo in one. Which Vidal could probably have a decent stab at, but a near to 34 year old regista never renowned for his pace and stamina???? Too much was asked of him, and it showed. Parallal the lack of Marchisio alongside Peluso with the ubiquitous presence of Vidal in the final third, in the middle and nearby Lichsteiner...
The pressing of our three centrebacks by Bayern required far more of Marchisio, both defensively and offensively. For me, his return to wearing the invisibility cloak cost us any chance of success. It also cost Matri and Quags any chance of finding space and goalscoring opportunities. If Pirlo is deep lying, Vidal on the surface of things more defensively inclined, then Marchisio has the job of offering the strongest support from the midfield trio to the attack. He offered nothing. I think its fair to say it was his worst performance of the Conte era, and whilst I still think he is a wonderful footballer, once again, I am starting to doubt his self confidence if not his ability to impose himself against top class opposition.
Stick Llorente in that attack in place of Matri and I can't see a different outcome.
I haven't mentioned the attack because they were starved, they were leaves without sunshine, roots without water. And their replacements didn't do much more than offer a brief injection of fresh energy, and certainly didnt leave me concluding that 'if only we had started with them instead!'.
I am unsure as to why you have this fetish for trying to trip me up, but I cannot see how I can be tripped up by an accusation of unfairness, when my views on Matri and Quagliarella haven't changed. Our most major signing of the Summer so far is a prima punta. Our second major signing will likely be a second striker Sanchez or Jovetic or even Muriel. Leading us towards a prima punta/second striker combination. I hope so! But in terms of my preferred striker combination, I'd say Matri and Quags...who have been given barely 3 games starting together (?).
Our complete capitulation of Marchisio led to problems all over the pitch...stretched midfield (2 players playing for 3), stretched defence, cut-off service to attack. A team can carry one player fully off his game maximum against mediocre oppostion, but not in the centre of a midfield 3 in a 3-5-2 away to Munich.
I have been wondering with increasing interest, how we can fit Pogba into our starting XI. With a forward line lacking quality, as I have said before, as everyone has said, its important to have some creativity in midfield, hence Pirlo. Whether he continues another year or so or is replaced sooner, I assume we will remain creative in the middle. Which leaves Vidal or Marchisio positions for Pogba to aim for. The argument for Claudio to be challenged for that spot by the young frenchman has just grown a little louder in volume and reason. And before you attack me for a knee-jerk reaction, I am talking of our future, not now. Next season for example. Let me hope I am wrong about Claudio, and that he improves at international level, and Conte can help him move past this seemingly malignant problem of bottling it on the biggest of stages...of vanishing. What is for sure, is that when I, the commentators and many other fans hardly notice one of our three central midfielders throughout a match, there is something to be discussed. When the player in question has shown similar behaviour in the past, the question appears of...Can Marchisio handle the pressure of facing the true giants of the game??
There were other reasons for the mauling in munich. Buffon made an error or two which proved costly, yet he also kept out several certain goalbound strikes. Barzagli was flustered, bonucci too wasteful in possession, pirlo too reliant on fouls been called that never came and losing the ball in terrbile positions, peluso was out of his depth. I can't see how Matri and quags could have done much more unless they dropped deep into midfield leading us to a 3-6 formation (no marchisio). The weakest link was Marchisio, because he simply didn't manage to provide a link in the team, in any way whatsoever...those midfield three are essential to our 3-5-2, more essential than any other area for they dictate the tempo, create the attacks, cover the defence, own the ball. if one of them is absent, its too much work for two. Well, I hope that satsifies your curiosity...
![Juventino[RUS]](https://www.juventuz.com/data/avatars/m/5/5409.jpg?1650619365){kind=avatar}
![Juventino[RUS]](https://www.juventuz.com/data/avatars/s/5/5409.jpg?1650619365){kind=avatar}
Its becoming more than odd, Alen, how you argue with me, by picking my statements from a different thread, a different time, a different moment, then using my own words to argue with me...Its almost as if you are attempting a warped projection of schizophrenia! Which is amusing, in some ways. Worrying for you and anyone close to you in other ways...
What you have quoted fits in perfectly with what I wrote before it, today, as part of this discussion. At least you have shown a hint of your aim here, which isnt to discuss Juventus, the bayern match, its to try force me into some kind of red faced corner and admit I am wrong, alen is great!I am sorry, you are the best, alen! Its just not going to happen.
I still see that problem with Mirko. How I have been proven dead wrong there, I have no idea...did Mirko come on the field and transform us into a force capable of not only pinning Bayern back, but making them retreat, backs against the wall, fear spreading through their ranks like wildfire, and screams and squeals of 'MIRKO IS HERE...all hands to the pumps!!!!!! quick, everyone behindthe ball, 3 markers on the montenegrin at the double!!!'. I don't think that happened.
I say ' marchisio was invisible he was supposed to support the attack and defence but didnt, failed miserably, so defence was fucked and attack had lost their main connection from midfield'
you reply with 'you said matri was great at holding the ball up and laying it off to our attacking midfielders...now you are wrong and admit it!!!!!'
and i say' what the hell is wrong with you??? how many times do I need to say the same thing...I'm not interested in a Who is Right, Who is Wrong battle...that is for children. how old are you by the way??? I had assumed at least in your 20s...but this RIGHT v WRONG routine is more in line with a younger lass/lad'
You seem to have got yourself in a muddle.
I could say "had beltrame played, he would have scored a hatrick, and so you are wrong, alen, just admit it, you are wrong...go on...wrong wrong wrong. and in turn, i am right!!!! can you hear me?? i am RIGHT...do you know why?? because you are wrong and i am right!!!!!" but it would be spastic. Beltrame didnt play against Munich. Mirko did for 25 minutes and what did he do?? did we become less predictable and more dangerous due to Mirko's talents??? Or did he manage to help Vidal get a couple of shots on goal...the one player who had already looked our most threatening throughout the game???
I was hoping for at least a sensible reply from you. Something to work with other than a very weird demand for me to repeat that I find quagliarella and matri far better goalscorers.
if I explain that we lacked midfield prenetration which fucked us up hugely in attack and defence, and you give me my own words as an argument, even going so far as to place in BOLD the very premise of my position on Matri and Quagliarella, as in they are better strikers and matri enjoys laying it off to the midfield penetration...you are answering your own argument with logical parts of my own position.
Have the decency to admit that I stick by what you quoted and can't see how it proves anything whatsoever other than you are arguing for the sake of arguing and in doing so, making yourself appear lacking anything but spite, and behind it, what you seem to have in spades is an inability to even understand what you are throwing at me.
One of the problems is that he links the midfield to the midfield moving forward to become the attack, which will be predictable against the top sides we will face as we progress in the champions league
Yep. I stick by that. I've found very little suggestion amongst the hundreds of posts of reactions and reports I have read that Conte fucked up by not playing Mirko from the start. Some people say, maybe we would have been better off. Maybe Mirko would have had a good game. but plenty more shrug their shoulders and say that he is more often invisible/hapless than helpful. He gave us a brief breath of fresh air when he came on...bayern were tiring, the game was won by then, and the traffic remained one way.
Both Matri and Quagliarella, regardless of their stats, can both shoot accurately and powerfully and far more consistently potently, than Mirko. I also see Matri improving at holding the ball up and laying the ball off to forward foraging midfielders.
yep. i stick by that. repeatedly I have explained how Marchisio had his worst game for nearly two years. HE WAS THE MAIN CONNECTION BETWEEN MIDFIELD AND ATTACK. who was Matri expected to lay the ball off to???
I would place both my balls on Matri and Quagliarella bettering Vucinic at accurate shooting.
I most certainly do think Matri has improved at holding the ball up and laying it off to marauding midfielders under Conte. I wrote a novella above highlighting why there were a lack of foraging forward midfielders, how the whole team was stretched defensively, due to the absence of marchisio, who is meant to be our most offensive forward foraging midfielder. Do you not see how ridiculous your post is now???
You are making no sense whatsoever. At least argue your own point rather than remind me of what I have written which still make sense to everyone but a person who has some kind of axe to grind and doesn't need logical, reasonable ammunition to fire. Its enough for you to say YOU WRONG YOU WRONG YOU WRONG YOU WRONG. is that not the defintion of trolling????
What you have quoted fits in perfectly with what I wrote before it, today, as part of this discussion. At least you have shown a hint of your aim here, which isnt to discuss Juventus, the bayern match, its to try force me into some kind of red faced corner and admit I am wrong, alen is great!I am sorry, you are the best, alen! Its just not going to happen.
I still see that problem with Mirko. How I have been proven dead wrong there, I have no idea...did Mirko come on the field and transform us into a force capable of not only pinning Bayern back, but making them retreat, backs against the wall, fear spreading through their ranks like wildfire, and screams and squeals of 'MIRKO IS HERE...all hands to the pumps!!!!!! quick, everyone behindthe ball, 3 markers on the montenegrin at the double!!!'. I don't think that happened.
I say ' marchisio was invisible he was supposed to support the attack and defence but didnt, failed miserably, so defence was fucked and attack had lost their main connection from midfield'
you reply with 'you said matri was great at holding the ball up and laying it off to our attacking midfielders...now you are wrong and admit it!!!!!'
and i say' what the hell is wrong with you??? how many times do I need to say the same thing...I'm not interested in a Who is Right, Who is Wrong battle...that is for children. how old are you by the way??? I had assumed at least in your 20s...but this RIGHT v WRONG routine is more in line with a younger lass/lad'
You seem to have got yourself in a muddle.
I could say "had beltrame played, he would have scored a hatrick, and so you are wrong, alen, just admit it, you are wrong...go on...wrong wrong wrong. and in turn, i am right!!!! can you hear me?? i am RIGHT...do you know why?? because you are wrong and i am right!!!!!" but it would be spastic. Beltrame didnt play against Munich. Mirko did for 25 minutes and what did he do?? did we become less predictable and more dangerous due to Mirko's talents??? Or did he manage to help Vidal get a couple of shots on goal...the one player who had already looked our most threatening throughout the game???
I was hoping for at least a sensible reply from you. Something to work with other than a very weird demand for me to repeat that I find quagliarella and matri far better goalscorers.
if I explain that we lacked midfield prenetration which fucked us up hugely in attack and defence, and you give me my own words as an argument, even going so far as to place in BOLD the very premise of my position on Matri and Quagliarella, as in they are better strikers and matri enjoys laying it off to the midfield penetration...you are answering your own argument with logical parts of my own position.
Have the decency to admit that I stick by what you quoted and can't see how it proves anything whatsoever other than you are arguing for the sake of arguing and in doing so, making yourself appear lacking anything but spite, and behind it, what you seem to have in spades is an inability to even understand what you are throwing at me.
One of the problems is that he links the midfield to the midfield moving forward to become the attack, which will be predictable against the top sides we will face as we progress in the champions league
Yep. I stick by that. I've found very little suggestion amongst the hundreds of posts of reactions and reports I have read that Conte fucked up by not playing Mirko from the start. Some people say, maybe we would have been better off. Maybe Mirko would have had a good game. but plenty more shrug their shoulders and say that he is more often invisible/hapless than helpful. He gave us a brief breath of fresh air when he came on...bayern were tiring, the game was won by then, and the traffic remained one way.
Both Matri and Quagliarella, regardless of their stats, can both shoot accurately and powerfully and far more consistently potently, than Mirko. I also see Matri improving at holding the ball up and laying the ball off to forward foraging midfielders.
yep. i stick by that. repeatedly I have explained how Marchisio had his worst game for nearly two years. HE WAS THE MAIN CONNECTION BETWEEN MIDFIELD AND ATTACK. who was Matri expected to lay the ball off to???
I would place both my balls on Matri and Quagliarella bettering Vucinic at accurate shooting.
I most certainly do think Matri has improved at holding the ball up and laying it off to marauding midfielders under Conte. I wrote a novella above highlighting why there were a lack of foraging forward midfielders, how the whole team was stretched defensively, due to the absence of marchisio, who is meant to be our most offensive forward foraging midfielder. Do you not see how ridiculous your post is now???
You are making no sense whatsoever. At least argue your own point rather than remind me of what I have written which still make sense to everyone but a person who has some kind of axe to grind and doesn't need logical, reasonable ammunition to fire. Its enough for you to say YOU WRONG YOU WRONG YOU WRONG YOU WRONG. is that not the defintion of trolling????
In a way I was actually happy we drew such a good team because I thought there was no way our players wouldn't be mentally prepared given the quality of the opponent. How sadly wrong I was.
They may have completely dominated us but congrats to Bayern and their fans for not being complete trolls, they're actually somewhat respectable (except for the attempted Ribery murder on Vidal).
It's not impossible second leg, but some more tactical awareness by Conte would have eased the pressure.
This sort of loss at times has the potential to send a teams season spiralling downwards - I hope this will not be the case with us.
They may have completely dominated us but congrats to Bayern and their fans for not being complete trolls, they're actually somewhat respectable (except for the attempted Ribery murder on Vidal).
It's not impossible second leg, but some more tactical awareness by Conte would have eased the pressure.
This sort of loss at times has the potential to send a teams season spiralling downwards - I hope this will not be the case with us.