Champions League 2022-23 (21 Viewers)
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UCL caliber teams such as Bayern, City, PSG, Madrid, Liverpool all playing each other for a spot while Milan, Napoli, Inda get to fight it amongst themselves with only Benfica and a broken Tottenham as a threat on their way, just got to find it funny how in the year that FIGC and UEFA teamed up to sink Juventus all of a sudden the italian teams that are otherwise likely to lose at any point against all teams on the other side of the panel still managed to get an almost free pass towards the UCL final lol
Dude.
You're talking about a conspiracy spanning probably 50 teams and 5000 players. A lot of them GIRLFRIENDS.
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Oh , i just realised you are probably still bitter after being humiliated by City and probably can’t think straight after not sleeping last night, it’s ok man, there’s always next year.
Not denying there are easy draws and even easy groups, not contesting they are randomly assembled either for most parts, but why make this a generally different discussion?
I am talking strictly about this season, even more so the KO stages of it. Both you and the bombardier are missing the key point here.
All italian teams being on the same side of the draw while having relatively easy draws and lower quality opponents to face throughout the KO’s while all other top 4 favorite teams to actually win UCL are playing amongst themselves on the other side of the panel is a convenient ‘coincidence’ to say the least…. all this while the FiGC president was recently promoted as UEFA vice-president soon after he launched war against Juventus, whom ironically was the only italian team in the past 10+ years who was somewhat relevant in UCL, and now all of a sudden all the other italian teams are back at the top of European football when Juve is under endless attacks from both UEFA and FIGC, with it perfectly shaped to happen now even without the Premier League money that Juventus has been advocating so loudly about and the main reason for which the SuperLeague was initially proposed, so let’s not add insult to irony, i for one don’t believe in coincidences such as this, but to each their own i guess.
I am talking strictly about this season, even more so the KO stages of it. Both you and the bombardier are missing the key point here.
All italian teams being on the same side of the draw while having relatively easy draws and lower quality opponents to face throughout the KO’s while all other top 4 favorite teams to actually win UCL are playing amongst themselves on the other side of the panel is a convenient ‘coincidence’ to say the least…. all this while the FiGC president was recently promoted as UEFA vice-president soon after he launched war against Juventus, whom ironically was the only italian team in the past 10+ years who was somewhat relevant in UCL, and now all of a sudden all the other italian teams are back at the top of European football when Juve is under endless attacks from both UEFA and FIGC, with it perfectly shaped to happen now even without the Premier League money that Juventus has been advocating so loudly about and the main reason for which the SuperLeague was initially proposed, so let’s not add insult to irony, i for one don’t believe in coincidences such as this, but to each their own i guess.
Five angry observations from Bayern Munich’s Champions League elimination to Manchester City
Same old story, this Bayern team isn’t built for the CL.
By Ineednoname Updated Apr 20, 2023, 12:40am CEST
92 Comments / 92 New
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Photo by Stefan Matzke - sampics/Getty Images,
“Fight” isn’t good enough
People will say that Bayern Munich fought hard tonight. They’ll say that the chances were there. They’ll say that Manchester City were harassed for a full 90 minutes. All of that is true. And it’s the kind of narrative that losers cling to.
How many more Champions League ties do we need to bottle for the club to recognize that there’s a serious problem here? Flick, Nagelsmann, Tuchel ... it doesn’t matter. Every quarter final is the same. Concede early, try to find the equalizer, make mistakes, concede more, “fight” back, and ultimately come up short. The only reason Bayern has to “fight” every time is because the team digs itself a hole to begin with. Opponents will let a team like that “fight” all they like. Because the nature of football means those deficits almost never get overturned.
This loss was far more deserved than the Villarreal or PSG games from seasons past, but the story remains the same. You can’t blame Robert Lewandowski for missing chances anymore. This team has an issue with performing at the biggest stage and that goes back to the mentality of the players.
There’s one man who exemplifies this issue: Joshua Kimmich. He used to be a stone cold killer in big games like this. But ever since he became the club’s “midfield general” and took over partial captaincy duties, his performances have grown erratic. Back when Kimmich was still a right-back, he used to score goals against Real Madrid and Barcelona, and he assisted Coman’s header in the CL final. He did the dirty work. He was there when the coach needed him. Where has that player gone?
It’s telling that, ever since successive coaches gave into more and more of Kimmich’s demands, that Bayern have started getting progressively worse in the CL. The same can be said of players like Serge Gnabry, Leroy Sane, Kingsley Coman, etc. Highly paid stars who got their big contracts in the three years since Bayern won the treble. What have they been doing lately? Why do they keep getting to set their own terms? They’re always preferred in the selection hierarchy, bad performances are easily forgiven, and every coach has to “accommodate” rather than “dictate”.
Something fundamental needs to change at Bayern Munich. This cannot go on.
Thomas Tuchel is clueless
Oh wait, is it too early to say that?
Yelling at the ref was practically the only thing Thomas Tuchel did in this game. Photo by Lars Baron/Getty Images
Sorry, but he got it completely wrong in both legs of this Champions League tie. The logic behind benching Alphonso Davies and Thomas Muller was simply not there. With Choupo-Moting on the pitch, why would you not put Muller there next to him? How could you prefer Musiala, who’s been in terrible form lately?
As for Cancelo, what has he shown at left-back to warrant this kind of consideration? Why not put him on the right and let Pavard shift to the center (with Upa benched)? What about Stanisic? Or Mazraoui?
Thomas Tuchel hasn’t been here for long but these are absolute rookie mistakes to make in a big game like this. It makes me question whether he’s the man to lead Bayern Munich going forward. Julian Nagelsmann made similar mistakes and he got sacked. If the board were watching tonight, they should reach similar conclusions here too.
Can signings fix this?
Yes, a striker is needed. Yes, Gnabry and Mane have got to go. Maybe Sane too. Except that’s not going to fix all the problems.
Yes, a better striker than Choupo-Moting could have helped in this game. Yes, injuries made the first leg difficult. But what about Villarreal last season, or PSG the year before that? So much more needs to go right if you want to progress in the Champions League. Yes, maybe injuries are out of a team’s control — but what about game management? What about mentality? What about the tactics?
At this point, maybe you have to ask questions about the mentality of the organization as a whole. Everyone, from the coach(es) to the players to the board bear some blame for Bayern’s three-year absence from the Champions League semis. There’s too much complacency at every level.
The pitch was as bad as the tactics
How can a professional football club at this level have a pitch this bad? The Allianz Arena is a world class stadium in every other sense of the term, but the pitch is just embarrassing. Even the English language commentators on the world stream were surprised by the number of trips and slips the players had during the game.
It’s getting to the point where Bayern’s acquisition of Wolfsburg’s award-winning groundskeeper feels like the signing of the summer. Maybe when Davies and Upa stop slipping with every other step, they could actually focus on their football. Speaking of Upa ...
What do we say about Dayot Upamecano?
Photo by Helge Prang - GES Sportfoto/Getty Images
Yes, Upamecano was not good tonight. Haaland bullied him. He has this problem with physical forwards — see his duel with Randal Kolo Muani earlier in the season. Does that mean he’s a bust? Did we waste €40m on him?
Not really. Dayot Upamecano is a solid defender, even when it counts. Go back and watch the World Cup final if you have any doubts. Yes, he struggles in certain situations against a certain type of player, but there was no need for Thomas Tuchel to hang him out to dry tonight. Benjamin Pavard could’ve been moved to the middle to allow for a different backline.
Upamecano will recover from this. He has the fundamentals of an excellent defender, and all excellent defenders make mistakes — especially when they’re young. His second season is already leagues ahead of his first, and before the City games most Bayern fans would’ve agreed that he and De Ligt made an incredible duo in central defense.
Feel free to criticize Upa tonight. It was a bad game from him. But let’s not blow it out of proportion. Bayern Munich has far bigger problems right now.
Miscellaneous observations
@BayernFan
All the things we said.
Same old story, this Bayern team isn’t built for the CL.
By Ineednoname Updated Apr 20, 2023, 12:40am CEST
92 Comments / 92 New
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“Fight” isn’t good enough
People will say that Bayern Munich fought hard tonight. They’ll say that the chances were there. They’ll say that Manchester City were harassed for a full 90 minutes. All of that is true. And it’s the kind of narrative that losers cling to.
How many more Champions League ties do we need to bottle for the club to recognize that there’s a serious problem here? Flick, Nagelsmann, Tuchel ... it doesn’t matter. Every quarter final is the same. Concede early, try to find the equalizer, make mistakes, concede more, “fight” back, and ultimately come up short. The only reason Bayern has to “fight” every time is because the team digs itself a hole to begin with. Opponents will let a team like that “fight” all they like. Because the nature of football means those deficits almost never get overturned.
This loss was far more deserved than the Villarreal or PSG games from seasons past, but the story remains the same. You can’t blame Robert Lewandowski for missing chances anymore. This team has an issue with performing at the biggest stage and that goes back to the mentality of the players.
There’s one man who exemplifies this issue: Joshua Kimmich. He used to be a stone cold killer in big games like this. But ever since he became the club’s “midfield general” and took over partial captaincy duties, his performances have grown erratic. Back when Kimmich was still a right-back, he used to score goals against Real Madrid and Barcelona, and he assisted Coman’s header in the CL final. He did the dirty work. He was there when the coach needed him. Where has that player gone?
It’s telling that, ever since successive coaches gave into more and more of Kimmich’s demands, that Bayern have started getting progressively worse in the CL. The same can be said of players like Serge Gnabry, Leroy Sane, Kingsley Coman, etc. Highly paid stars who got their big contracts in the three years since Bayern won the treble. What have they been doing lately? Why do they keep getting to set their own terms? They’re always preferred in the selection hierarchy, bad performances are easily forgiven, and every coach has to “accommodate” rather than “dictate”.
Something fundamental needs to change at Bayern Munich. This cannot go on.
Thomas Tuchel is clueless
Oh wait, is it too early to say that?
Sorry, but he got it completely wrong in both legs of this Champions League tie. The logic behind benching Alphonso Davies and Thomas Muller was simply not there. With Choupo-Moting on the pitch, why would you not put Muller there next to him? How could you prefer Musiala, who’s been in terrible form lately?
As for Cancelo, what has he shown at left-back to warrant this kind of consideration? Why not put him on the right and let Pavard shift to the center (with Upa benched)? What about Stanisic? Or Mazraoui?
Thomas Tuchel hasn’t been here for long but these are absolute rookie mistakes to make in a big game like this. It makes me question whether he’s the man to lead Bayern Munich going forward. Julian Nagelsmann made similar mistakes and he got sacked. If the board were watching tonight, they should reach similar conclusions here too.
Can signings fix this?
Yes, a striker is needed. Yes, Gnabry and Mane have got to go. Maybe Sane too. Except that’s not going to fix all the problems.
Yes, a better striker than Choupo-Moting could have helped in this game. Yes, injuries made the first leg difficult. But what about Villarreal last season, or PSG the year before that? So much more needs to go right if you want to progress in the Champions League. Yes, maybe injuries are out of a team’s control — but what about game management? What about mentality? What about the tactics?
At this point, maybe you have to ask questions about the mentality of the organization as a whole. Everyone, from the coach(es) to the players to the board bear some blame for Bayern’s three-year absence from the Champions League semis. There’s too much complacency at every level.
The pitch was as bad as the tactics
How can a professional football club at this level have a pitch this bad? The Allianz Arena is a world class stadium in every other sense of the term, but the pitch is just embarrassing. Even the English language commentators on the world stream were surprised by the number of trips and slips the players had during the game.
It’s getting to the point where Bayern’s acquisition of Wolfsburg’s award-winning groundskeeper feels like the signing of the summer. Maybe when Davies and Upa stop slipping with every other step, they could actually focus on their football. Speaking of Upa ...
What do we say about Dayot Upamecano?
Yes, Upamecano was not good tonight. Haaland bullied him. He has this problem with physical forwards — see his duel with Randal Kolo Muani earlier in the season. Does that mean he’s a bust? Did we waste €40m on him?
Not really. Dayot Upamecano is a solid defender, even when it counts. Go back and watch the World Cup final if you have any doubts. Yes, he struggles in certain situations against a certain type of player, but there was no need for Thomas Tuchel to hang him out to dry tonight. Benjamin Pavard could’ve been moved to the middle to allow for a different backline.
Upamecano will recover from this. He has the fundamentals of an excellent defender, and all excellent defenders make mistakes — especially when they’re young. His second season is already leagues ahead of his first, and before the City games most Bayern fans would’ve agreed that he and De Ligt made an incredible duo in central defense.
Feel free to criticize Upa tonight. It was a bad game from him. But let’s not blow it out of proportion. Bayern Munich has far bigger problems right now.
Miscellaneous observations
- The board will be feeling the heat tonight, as they should. They gambled and lost hard. Time to face the music.
- Playing Musiala in the middle is such a waste, he never gets to show off his 1v1 dribbling ability.
- The referee was appalling, but maybe the handball rule is the main culprit here. Both the penalties on the night should never have been given.
- It’s funny that Inter Milan, a team that Bayern beat while sleepwalking during the group stages, is now in the CL semis while Bayern are out in the quarters.
- Would Julian Nagelsmann have achieved a different result? Maybe, maybe not. It’s not like he didn’t have his moments in the CL — see last year’s elimination to Villarreal.
@BayernFan
All the things we said.
He reminds me of Jérôme Boateng in some ways, Boateng also had a tendency to be totally clueless, even if being a World class defender for some time.
What they both have in common is the feeling of this ticking time bomb. You know they can play excellent on their day and for long periodes of time, but you also sit there with the feeling that at any moment they can just turn off completely mentally.
Not denying there are easy draws and even easy groups, not contesting they are randomly assembled either, but why make this a generally different discussion?
I am talking strictly about this season. Both you and the bombardier are missing the key point here.
All italian teams being on the same side of the draw while having relatively easy draws and lower quality opponents to face throughout the KO’s while all other top 4 favorite teams to actually win UCL are playing amongst themselves on the other side of the panel…. all this while the FiGC president was recently promoted as UEFA vice-president soon after he launched war against Juventus, whom ironically was the only italian team in the past 10+ years who was somewhat relevant in UCL, and now all of a sudden all the other italian teams are back at the top of European football when Juve is under endless attacks from both UEFA and FIGC, with it perfectly shaped to happen now even without the Premier League money that Juventus has been advocating so loudly about and the main reason for which the SuperLeague was initially proposed, so let’s not add insult to irony, i for one don’t believe in coincidences such as this, but to each their own i guess.
I am talking strictly about this season. Both you and the bombardier are missing the key point here.
All italian teams being on the same side of the draw while having relatively easy draws and lower quality opponents to face throughout the KO’s while all other top 4 favorite teams to actually win UCL are playing amongst themselves on the other side of the panel…. all this while the FiGC president was recently promoted as UEFA vice-president soon after he launched war against Juventus, whom ironically was the only italian team in the past 10+ years who was somewhat relevant in UCL, and now all of a sudden all the other italian teams are back at the top of European football when Juve is under endless attacks from both UEFA and FIGC, with it perfectly shaped to happen now even without the Premier League money that Juventus has been advocating so loudly about and the main reason for which the SuperLeague was initially proposed, so let’s not add insult to irony, i for one don’t believe in coincidences such as this, but to each their own i guess.
Hell, you can strengthen your theory by mentioning the Europa League, where Juve have Sporting, United and Sevilla, while Roma have a Belgian, a Dutch team, and Leverkusen. But it still won't mean that it wasn't a random draw.
And even if there was some kind of intervention from Ceferin, it had to happen after Inter eliminated Barcelona from the groups, Napoli won their group ahead of Liverpool (hence avoiding Real in the knockouts), and after we were humiliated in our CL group.
But ok, let's see how this develops. If what you're implying is true, UEFA will do everything for Juve not to win the EL. If we win it, and City/Real win the CL, Ceferin will be the greatest loser ever if what you're saying really happened.
Look, i am not here trying to come and pass on ilogical conspiracy theories, you are maybe taking what i said a bit too literal as there is clearly very little palpable proof, ofc that for the milanese teams to reach a UCL semi final is no easy feet with even all the help in the world as there were many games and many rounds to this stage, but nonetheless there is certainly no wrong in pointing out that all italian teams got overall very favorable draws and were all put on the same side of the panel to potentially facilitate at least one of them going far, which does come at a suspicious timing given Juventus’s situation and downfall, so i’d call it more of a opportunistic thing they jumped on after they seen them all get out of their groups, this Ceferin move/slight adjustments alone looking to me perfectly designed to promote and gratify the state of italian football under Gravina’s FIGC who is currently at war with Juventus whom is defending themselves mentioning how they have been the flag of italian football for all this years and that without them the league would sink, such a coincidence that it is now when italian league has a team guaranteed in the UCL final while Juventus can hardly get past Sporting in the EL, but that is a totally different discussion as we got only ourself to blame for the uninspired management and poor squad building as we ourselves should have been capable of passing our group, but if we had done it make sure that this year we would have been the only italian team on the Bayern, Madrid , City side of the KO’s.
Sadly yes.
Hernandez or Pavard next to De Ligt would make our defense more stable I believe, but the problem is also the midfield. We didn't adress the midfield issue since we sold Thiago, we need a true holding midfielder and a DM like Javi Martinez. Laimer is coming in, but is he good enough? I doubt it, but lets see.
Kimmich and Goretzka doesn't work in the biggest games, we lack the control and the player to control the tempo. Starting to think the 4-3-3 formation would suit us more and give us more control in the midfield.
Hernandez or Pavard next to De Ligt would make our defense more stable I believe, but the problem is also the midfield. We didn't adress the midfield issue since we sold Thiago, we need a true holding midfielder and a DM like Javi Martinez. Laimer is coming in, but is he good enough? I doubt it, but lets see.
Kimmich and Goretzka doesn't work in the biggest games, we lack the control and the player to control the tempo. Starting to think the 4-3-3 formation would suit us more and give us more control in the midfield.
And it kinda limits them too much as well imo. Both can be great going forward. They would profit a lot by having a true DM like Javi behind them. Laimer is good, but yeah, having my doubts he's good enough to start for a team like Bayern. But good addition anyway.
Hernandez is always an injury away from early retirement though. Incredibly unlucky.
Hernandez is always an injury away from early retirement though. Incredibly unlucky.
4-2-3-1 is the formation we've been playing for more than a decade, I think it started under Van Gaal. But Don Jupp really made us tick so well in the formation.
I also believe one of the reasons for us playing 4-2-3-1 for so many years was to have Müller play behind the striker as thats his best position.
We had the complete team in terms of wingers, striker, fullbacks and goalie in the 2012-13 CL campaign and final.
Schweinsteiger and Javi as DCM/CM, Müller just in front of them. Mandzukic to harass/bully the oppositions CB's and take the physical duels. Then you had godlike wingers in Robbery in their prime. Then Neuer as the worlds best at the time.
Behind them two great players in Alaba and Lahm to overlap and also put in a solid defensive shift. Our weakest point that season was Dante and Boateng, but our fullbacks, midfield, goalie and overall structure/physicality simply made us play so well as a unit. We bullied most teams that year and had so much stamina and agression.
Kimmich and Goretzka are individually great players, but they're simply not giving enough protection in front of the defense. We were also incredibly lucky to have a fullback like Lahm for so many years. He really did wonders to our overall defensive structure and it was so rare for him to have a bad game.
I simply can't remember a single match where Lahm had a game like the ones Upamecano has. Not to forget his insane tackling ability, even as he got older and lost pace. He made for it with his experience and ability to read the game.
This team here under Jupp, I miss it so so much
I also believe one of the reasons for us playing 4-2-3-1 for so many years was to have Müller play behind the striker as thats his best position.
We had the complete team in terms of wingers, striker, fullbacks and goalie in the 2012-13 CL campaign and final.
Schweinsteiger and Javi as DCM/CM, Müller just in front of them. Mandzukic to harass/bully the oppositions CB's and take the physical duels. Then you had godlike wingers in Robbery in their prime. Then Neuer as the worlds best at the time.
Behind them two great players in Alaba and Lahm to overlap and also put in a solid defensive shift. Our weakest point that season was Dante and Boateng, but our fullbacks, midfield, goalie and overall structure/physicality simply made us play so well as a unit. We bullied most teams that year and had so much stamina and agression.
Kimmich and Goretzka are individually great players, but they're simply not giving enough protection in front of the defense. We were also incredibly lucky to have a fullback like Lahm for so many years. He really did wonders to our overall defensive structure and it was so rare for him to have a bad game.
I simply can't remember a single match where Lahm had a game like the ones Upamecano has. Not to forget his insane tackling ability, even as he got older and lost pace. He made for it with his experience and ability to read the game.
This team here under Jupp, I miss it so so much
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