Beslan hostage taking (4 Viewers)

[Henry]

you think they would have learned after the theatre crisis! as Gray said, the Russians should have been better prepared-either they should have gone in earlier, or, if they were trying to set things up, they still should have been prepared to go in in a moments notice, and have a plan so that if they have to act suddenly, they wouldn't just f*** things up even more, which is what ended up hapenning

 

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[Zlatan]

New reports from Russian official say the death toll is at 322, over 155 of them are children. Not to mention the 700 wounded

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

I think you've been playing too much Rainbow Six

I'm aware of the existence of such capabilities, but in such a presumably crowded situation as it was, you have several problems, including:

1) if the terrorists are getting shot through the walls one by one, I think they'll start executing hostages before you have a chance of figuring out exactly who's a terrorist and who's not and shooting them all through the walls

2) bullets don't fly in a perfectly straight path when travelling through walls, so you'd have to wait until there's sufficient space allowed so you don't accidentally shoot a hostage

sounds far-fetched, but in this kind of situation, they really shouldn't take any risks... not that what they actually did was brilliant anyway, so maybe they should've just donned the thermo-gogs and started blasting through the plaster :groan:

Exactly Gray. Its just too risky. The only possible way to stop the situation in that case was to send multiple Special Forces teams into the compound with some sort of plan worked out. But they probably aren't even smart enough to make a good plan.

 

[Juve89]

pne of the children who got out told the press that the was beeing forced to pee in a bottle and drink it

 

[kurvengeflüster]

imagine this scenario in USA, Germany or Australia. Do you think these countries would act in another way? Would Bush negotiate with terrorists? Well, I think the Russians did everything for saving as many lives as possible. such attacks on civilisation neither are a clear and clean rainbow-six level nor a car accident when you can take road traffic act to solve all problems. I mean there were over 1000 hostages. I wouldn't want to take responsibility for any kind of acting and afterwards to answer back/apologise to world public which is convinced that it would have acted in a reasonably way.

 

[gray]

We never said that that they should have negotiated with the terrorists; what we were saying was, if the whole situation is gonna end up in bloodshed anyway, the Russian special forces should have at least had the upper hand in the situation, especially considering they've had plenty of 'training' for this kind of situation before.

As Henry said, they should have had a plan to storm the buildings at any given time... i.e.

Plan A = storm the building at 1500
Plan B = storm the building at 1502

etc... okay, maybe that's a bit too drastic, but you get my point

Not only should they have been better prepared to take action, the 'rules' of counter-terrorism dictate that professional operatives should have some degree of the element of surprise. Now I know it's very difficult to sneak through such a presumably large compound as a school, and you can tell me that I've been playing too much Raven Shield, but surely the troops shouldn't have been caught off-guard and had to think "oh shite! What should we do? Hmm, maybe we should just rush the building now..."

 

[Asma]

Al-Quaeda! when r they gonna stop this bullshit?! :groan:

 

[kurvengeflüster]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
We never said that that they should have negotiated with the terrorists; what we were saying was, if the whole situation is gonna end up in bloodshed anyway, the Russian special forces should have at least had the upper hand in the situation, especially considering they've had plenty of 'training' for this kind of situation before.

You can't get prepared for such a situation. Special Forces train how to open doors, plant explosives or to snipe around the whole day. But you'll never find a special force troop working out a 1000-hostage scenario.

As Henry said, they should have had a plan to storm the buildings at any given time... i.e.

Plan A = storm the building at 1500
Plan B = storm the building at 1502

etc... okay, maybe that's a bit too drastic, but you get my point

no I don't, would you initiate a counter-attack not knowing 100% how many terrorists?, where all terrorists are?, where all hostages are? are there booby traps and explosives?

Could you also live with the situation that half of your squads is killed in combat and as revenge of your attack the terrorists starts with executions? how would you explain affected parents your failed attack?

Last but not least..we should stop to compare these real things with any kind of computer games. these games are produced in order to give the player a nice time. there is a "restart"-button, your enemies are dumb like bread and if you fail nobody will die because of the fact that your plan was crap. It's just a game.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by kurvengeflüster ] ++
You can't get prepared for such a situation. Special Forces train how to open doors, plant explosives or to snipe around the whole day. But you'll never find a special force troop working out a 1000-hostage scenario.

Well knowing that such a situation can come about (as it already has in the very same city), maybe they should be a little more prepared for a large-scale hostage situation, don't you think?

++ [ originally posted by kurvengeflüster ] ++
no I don't, would you initiate a counter-attack not knowing 100% how many terrorists?, where all terrorists are?, where all hostages are? are there booby traps and explosives?

So a better alternative is "sit around and wait for the terrorists to fire the first shots"?... keep in mind the fact that the special forces didn't have any of this information when they actually did go in...

++ [ originally posted by kurvengeflüster ] ++
if you fail nobody will die because of the fact that your plan was crap. It's just a game.

Okay, so let's compare it to real life then. The plan was crap... oh wait, there apparently wasn't even a plan to speak of. People did die...

Everyone has their own opinion; I think they did a shite job and were well under-prepared, you think they were as prepared as they could possibly have been... we could do this all day, but I'd rather not, so let's leave it there, shall we?

 

[kurvengeflüster]

ok let's leave it...everybody keeps his points

 

[Bjerknes]

I have to agree with Gray. The Russians were not organized at all when the battle began, not to mention the mothers and fathers of the children inside were running around the school with weapons themselves. That is a big no-no in hostage situations, when the family of the hostages gets involved and wants to do something. Leave it to the pros people. They could have set up numerous precision breach plans, in which they could distract the terrorists in one area, while moving into the other side of the school, trying to secure it. So many possibilities. But what did the Russians do? Run around in a total free-for-all which was in itself a disaster waiting to happen. Sorry, but the Russian government is to blame, no question.

 

[kurvengeflüster]

I blame the terrorists.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by kurvengeflüster ] ++
I blame the terrorists.

Well yeah those bastards were the main cause of course. But its Russia's fault that so many perished.

 

[Dharurat]

there were about 1000 people who were held hostages, and at the end of the day an alarming 300+ of those hostages were killed...

that's pretty much 1 civilian death out of every 3 hostages taken.. No matter how you look at it, the russians handled it very very very poorly...

The russians were unprepared for the final onslaught, that's for sure... They were mainly bidding their time through negotiations in order for them to formulate some sort of attack, but when suddenly the first explosions were heard (reports said that there were disagreements among the terrorists before the first bombs exploded), the russians had no choice BUT to rush in, whether or not they were prepared for it...

Putin has always had a hardline policy when it comes to chechnya.. There were no doubts in my mind that Putin was not going to give an inch to the terrorists. His style, as was the case of the previous theatre hostage-crisis, was to negotiate as much of the hostages to be released without conceding anything, and THEN just hit them hard... He was doing the same in Besla... But things went horribly wrong...

For me, i felt even though the crisis ended up in tragedy, i agreed with Putin's hardline stance against the terrorists... In the war against terrorism, i believe NO ONE should EVER concede ANYTHING to terrorists.. It gives out a clear message that we will not tolerate terrorims; that no terrorist can use fear as a tool to force others to give in to their demands, not even a little....

I am a Muslim, and i would be the first to admit that the terrorism these days are mostly done by Muslims... I will not condone such acts, and i believe that such evil should never be tolerated, or they will be even bolder in the future... a clear message must be sent to terrorists--- We will die before we will give in to the likes of you..

Putin made that point, but such a costly price was paid...

P/S:My condolences to those who lost their lives in Besla...