Bench Discussion (13 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by snoop ] ++


here we go,you call names again.it's always like that,when someone don't agree with you,you always do that..

No I don't always do that, and it's a fact some people around here agree with Capello no matter what...those are what you call yes men. That's not name calling at all, Snoop.

Certainly nothing like the expletives you have posted towards others on this forum.

 

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[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by sateeh ] ++


Everyone is talking abt the liverpool games, and i tell that it was 85% capello's fault, cuz he just had the wrong approach to the game.Especially in the first game when he tried to play the "english" game( the fast, long balls), so we just could'nt cope with the scousers and lost.In the 2nd leg it was again partially capello's fault but i blame the players aswell, they showed nothing.Its like they just surrendered.

Of course the loss was both the manager's and the entire squad's fault, however advising your team to be "patient" when you absolutely positively have to score a goal is not good advice IMO.

well did liverpool deserve the luck they had last year?i dont think so at least.For gods sake their not even supposed to be at the CL this year.Did milan deserve the luck they got ?i dont think so.

Liverpool fought back like I have never seen before...the way they pushed themselves back into the match by never giving up just goes to show what happens when you work hard. Milan came out in the second half a bit lackadaisically, and they paid for their mistakes. Their defense totally broke down and you cannot pin that solely on bad luck. That said, I still do not like anything about Liverpool.

 

[Juve_Kosova]

++ [ originally posted by Jeeks ] ++
Did Erkka hire Juve_Kosova to cheer for him?

so now im not allowed to agree in what other members say?

 

[sateeh]

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++


Of course the loss was both the manager's and the entire squad's fault, however advising your team to be "patient" when you absolutely positively have to score a goal is not good advice IMO.





Liverpool fought back like I have never seen before...the way they pushed themselves back into the match by never giving up just goes to show what happens when you work hard. Milan came out in the second half a bit lackadaisically, and they paid for their mistakes. Their defense totally broke down and you cannot pin that solely on bad luck. That said, I still do not like anything about Liverpool.

\


well since liverpool were very good in counters, u couldnt just risk everything from the get go.And as i said, even the players didnt show any passion in that return game.They more like shadows of themselves.

Abt liverpool, i was talking abt the final.. i was talking abt the games against chelsea.This was pure luck.
And this year their luck ran out against the big teams

 

[JCK]

++ [ originally posted by Juve_Kosova ] ++


so now im not allowed to agree in what other members say?

Where did you see the words 'allow' and 'not' in my post?

 

[Dan10]

i dont understand all the capello bashing in here...i mean hes our leader and has done some amazing things in his first seasons here like bringing in zlatan, vieira,canna, etc. He knows what hes doing with this squad and he sold n loaned those players for a reason. If he feels that gianni. n blasi r good enuf backups to emo n paddy, then hell they must be.

 

[lestat_1987]

moggi is our leader

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Dan10 ] ++
i dont understand all the capello bashing in here...i mean hes our leader and has done some amazing things in his first seasons here like bringing in zlatan, vieira,canna, etc. He knows what hes doing with this squad and he sold n loaned those players for a reason. If he feels that gianni. n blasi r good enuf backups to emo n paddy, then hell they must be.

Right. Just like Blasi was good enough to start for Juventus last year...just like it was good enough to "be patient" against Liverpool and fall out of the competition...just like it's good enough to start the players who are not on form match after match while the players on form reside on the bench. Capello is always right.

 

[Juve_Kosova]

++ [ originally posted by Jeeks ] ++


Where did you see the words 'allow' and 'not' in my post?

Yes true that u dident write that but it feels like u mean it in that way...

 

[JCK]

++ [ originally posted by Juve_Kosova ] ++


Yes true that u dident write that but it feels like u mean it in that way...

I think you should belong in the Menace-paranoia group then.

 

[Juve_Kosova]

++ [ originally posted by Jeeks ] ++


I think you should belong in the Menace-paranoia group then.

Okay.. Good for me theN! :down:

 

[sateeh]

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++


Right. Just like Blasi was good enough to start for Juventus last year...just like it was good enough to "be patient" against Liverpool and fall out of the competition...just like it's good enough to start the players who are not on form match after match while the players on form reside on the bench. Capello is always right.

Whooo will satisfy the GREAT Andy to be the juve coach ????
You seek perfection so am thinking mourinho, right ??

screw him that fcuking snob

 

[Stu]

We could definitely use another quality midfield player or two as Giannichedda, Blasi and Olivera aren't good enough to play regularly or in big games when the likes of Emerson, Vieira and Camoranesi are unavailable. If we lose Vieira to a long term injury we'll be in deep shit. The team lacks drive without Patrick and his presence was sorely missed in Munich a few days ago. Even though Paddy isn't a playmaker so to speak we create a lot more with him in the side as his ballwinning, passing and technical skills allow us to keep the ball more effectively and more often. Emerson is a great holding midfielder but he doesn't give us what Vieira does going forward and Blasi and Giannichedda can't give us that either.

 

[Stu]

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++

Right. Just like Blasi was good enough to start for Juventus last year...just like it was good enough to "be patient" against Liverpool and fall out of the competition...just like it's good enough to start the players who are not on form match after match while the players on form reside on the bench. Capello is always right.

Word.

 

[Erkka]

++ [ originally posted by Holygr4le ] ++
EDIT: Christ.. I mean..., I do agree with what your saying just that I believe we can find improvement even though our results this far is superb. I do not seek in finding someone who should bare the houndhead when there is no head to bare...

OK, this is the bottom line and I agree with you. But once again, that would be more of a luxury than a necessity. Bench is full of expensive players that would be starting material nearly everywhere and play for their respective national teams.

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++
Again you miss the point...what is versatility when a coach doesn't use it? If Vieira is out he will use Giannichedda no matter what...if Nedved is out he is seemingly more happy to field Chiellini...if Camoranesi is out he will switch Nedved to the right flank where he continues to fail...versatility is nothing when the coach doesnt use it. Same formation and tactics every match.

Well that's his choice, isn't it? The versatility hasn't gone anywhere. The record so far speaks for itself, it's quite hilarious and simply ungrateful to complain in a situation like this, unless...

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++
I'm more concerned with the Champions League than the Scudetto race...thought I made that clear in my original post. Of course we won the Scudetto with Blasi, however our displays were not always so safe and sound.

Luck? You sound like Capello...if we are waiting for luck we'll have to wait forever. What a silly attitude IMO.

What do they lack? Are you kidding me Erkka...you should be able to figure that out yourself.

...you once again compare Juve to the one and only in the current footballing world, Chelsea. At this point I'd like to remind you that traditionally Italians are more concerned about Serie A than European competitions, last few years have been exceptions because the cleft between big three and the others have gone very far, probably even too far.

...and the hell with it, Juve's current squad width is so large that it can only be compared to few others. If we don't include Chelsea, only Milan is up there with Juve.

What do you want? What's the point of having cambiasso's and nesta's on the bench when Juve can easily cope with this squad too. Why the hell is all this complaining. Think about it, current injuries, light or serious kept out
Gianluigi Buffon, Lilian Thuram, Jonathan Zebina, Patrick Vieira, Mauro Camoranesi and David Trezeguet, how many teams in the globe could handle seven (7) absences from their regular starting line-up? It's ridiculous to complain when Juve has got nine victories from ten games while they haven't had their regular line-up on the field.

..."luck and not always safe and sound performances." :dontcare: You want Juve to win every game 5-0? Yes, it would be fun for a season or two, but it would also kill football and enjoyment out of this all.

Besides, why all this diss towards luck as a piece of victory? Back to the basics, football consists about small, even trivial factors. You just can't win all the separate combats and balls, but if you desire for win you MUST win them when they are at the top of their importance. These singular points are crucial, and most certainly pure luck plays bigger or smaller role at them. Are you honestly saying that Greece was the best at Euros or that Liverpool is the best club in Europe? Nope, but they succeeded when they most needed to. What if Del Piero's correct goal would have been accepted, what if Cannavaro hadn't hit the post, would Juve be holding European Champions? Who knows, that's the thing that I love the most in football and sports in general, you can't ever predict anything for certain, everything isn't simple mathematics.

You'd need atleast 10 games to prove which is better team. The bottom line is that in a cup-type competion you need luck, there's no denying of that. The best doesn't always win. That went quite off-topic what so what, I think you needed that.

And about this nonsense about yes-men, I don't give a damn, just don't include me with them. I do dislike Capello, but it also would be stupid to critisize him for something that he isn't even responsible for, specially when the record is what it is. I'd rather have someone else on the bench but hey, at least he's a proven winner.

 

[sateeh]

++ [ originally posted by Erkka ] ++


OK, this is the bottom line and I agree with you. But once again, that would be more of a luxury than a necessity. Bench is full of expensive players that would be starting material nearly everywhere and play for their respective national teams.



Well that's his choice, isn't it? The versatility hasn't gone anywhere. The record so far speaks for itself, it's quite hilarious and simply ungrateful to complain in a situation like this, unless...



...you once again compare Juve to the one and only in the current footballing world, Chelsea. At this point I'd like to remind you that traditionally Italians are more concerned about Serie A than European competitions, last few years have been exceptions because the cleft between big three and the others have gone very far, probably even too far.

...and the hell with it, Juve's current squad width is so large that it can only be compared to few others. If we don't include Chelsea, only Milan is up there with Juve.

What do you want? What's the point of having cambiasso's and nesta's on the bench when Juve can easily cope with this squad too. Why the hell is all this complaining. Think about it, current injuries, light or serious kept out
Gianluigi Buffon, Lilian Thuram, Jonathan Zebina, Patrick Vieira, Mauro Camoranesi and David Trezeguet, how many teams in the globe could handle seven (7) absences from their regular starting line-up? It's ridiculous to complain when Juve has got nine victories from ten games while they haven't had their regular line-up on the field.

..."luck and not always safe and sound performances." :dontcare: You want Juve to win every game 5-0? Yes, it would be fun for a season or two, but it would also kill football and enjoyment out of this all.

Besides, why all this diss towards luck as a piece of victory? Back to the basics, football consists about small, even trivial factors. You just can't win all the separate combats and balls, but if you desire for win you MUST win them when they are at the top of their importance. These singular points are crucial, and most certainly pure luck plays bigger or smaller role at them. Are you honestly saying that Greece was the best at Euros or that Liverpool is the best club in Europe? Nope, but they succeeded when they most needed to. What if Del Piero's correct goal would have been accepted, what if Cannavaro hadn't hit the post, would Juve be holding European Champions? Who knows, that's the thing that I love the most in football and sports in general, you can't ever predict anything for certain, everything isn't simple mathematics.

You'd need atleast 10 games to prove which is better team. The bottom line is that in a cup-type competion you need luck, there's no denying of that. The best doesn't always win. That went quite off-topic what so what, I think you needed that.

And about this nonsense about yes-men, I don't give a damn, just don't include me with them. I do dislike Capello, but it also would be stupid to critisize him for something that he isn't even responsible for, specially when the record is what it is. I'd rather have someone else on the bench but hey, at least he's a proven winner.

right again...
i would like to add something abt just focusing on the CL.Its a stupid thing to do that.The last time juve did that was in 2002/2003, when i thought we had a very good squad.But we didnt, and we lost out on everything including the coppa italia.
Barca r trying to do that this year, and trust me if rijjkard continues doing that they will end up with nothing.Although they have one of the best squads in the world.

The juve administration and coach clearly want the CL so do we!Thats why we have Viera and not any other player in the world.He has that kind of experience that fits capello's tactics and has enough experience and abilities to give us the thing we lacked last year.

Comparing juve to chelsea isnt fair...We will not pay 24 million for Drogba, never.It shows the character of juve, we bring underrated players and make them superstars.WE DONT NEED THE BEST IN THE WORLD!!!
And am not a " yes man " or watever is it.I just tell it how i see it.The man makes mistakes but u cant blame him for everything.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Erkka ] ++
Well that's his choice, isn't it? The versatility hasn't gone anywhere. The record so far speaks for itself, it's quite hilarious and simply ungrateful to complain in a situation like this, unless...

Yes it does speak for itself. I think it speaks volumes that we lost the biggest game of the season thus far and performed pathetically for most of that respective match. I also think our performances speak volumes about the options in midfield as well.

...you once again compare Juve to the one and only in the current footballing world, Chelsea. At this point I'd like to remind you that traditionally Italians are more concerned about Serie A than European competitions, last few years have been exceptions because the cleft between big three and the others have gone very far, probably even too far.

Sayy...what? Where did I compare Juventus to Chelsea in this thread?

...and the hell with it, Juve's current squad width is so large that it can only be compared to few others. If we don't include Chelsea, only Milan is up there with Juve.

As a whole yes, however, when looking at the midfield as a single entity, there are a few clubs that have more options. AC Milan, Chelsea, Bayern, Barcelona...the club you seemingly forgot about Inter, and perhaps a couple others have more true options in midfield than we do. IMO we cannot properly replace Vieira or Emerson, as well as Camoranesi in midfield. Now how on earth is this situation okey-dokey???

What do you want? What's the point of having cambiasso's and nesta's on the bench when Juve can easily cope with this squad too. Why the hell is all this complaining. Think about it, current injuries, light or serious kept out Gianluigi Buffon, Lilian Thuram, Jonathan Zebina, Patrick Vieira, Mauro Camoranesi and David Trezeguet, how many teams in the globe could handle seven (7) absences from their regular starting line-up? It's ridiculous to complain when Juve has got nine victories from ten games while they haven't had their regular line-up on the field.

What do I want? I think I want a proper replacement for Vieira and Emerson who can at least do half of what they can. I want a proper replacement for Camoranesi so we do not have to field Nedved out of place on the right flank. And actually I think you have misunderstood me throughout this whole discussion...I'm obviously focused on the options in midfield, and when any objective person looks at the team roster they will say we could use another option in midfield...I think that is obvious.

..."luck and not always safe and sound performances." :dontcare: You want Juve to win every game 5-0? Yes, it would be fun for a season or two, but it would also kill football and enjoyment out of this all.

What does this have anything to do with what I posted? As I stated before, we cannot just hope for luck to win big games...what kind of attitude is that? Me thinks a complacent attitude, something I detest. You cannot just rely on luck to win everything and hope for it to come around one day...winning starts with hard work. Of course luck does play some part in football, however in reality it's not as important as having a great and hardworking team to begin with.

Besides, why all this diss towards luck as a piece of victory? Back to the basics, football consists about small, even trivial factors. You just can't win all the separate combats and balls, but if you desire for win you MUST win them when they are at the top of their importance. These singular points are crucial, and most certainly pure luck plays bigger or smaller role at them. Are you honestly saying that Greece was the best at Euros or that Liverpool is the best club in Europe? Nope, but they succeeded when they most needed to. What if Del Piero's correct goal would have been accepted, what if Cannavaro hadn't hit the post, would Juve be holding European Champions? Who knows, that's the thing that I love the most in football and sports in general, you can't ever predict anything for certain, everything isn't simple mathematics.

True that, however waiting for luck to help us along is a terrible attitude IMO...even Capello would frown upon that.

That went quite off-topic what so what, I think you needed that.

Come again??

And about this nonsense about yes-men, I don't give a damn, just don't include me with them. I do dislike Capello, but it also would be stupid to critisize him for something that he isn't even responsible for, specially when the record is what it is. I'd rather have someone else on the bench but hey, at least he's a proven winner.

Did I say you were a yes-man? No, don't think I did. I know you can form your own opinions without following some brilliant tactician around like he's Jesus Christ.

 

[Erkka]

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++

Yes it does speak for itself. I think it speaks volumes that we lost the biggest game of the season thus far and performed pathetically for most of that respective match. I also think our performances speak volumes about the options in midfield as well.

So you honestly judge the whole season only through one single game while you just agreed that in single games the luck plays quite large role? What the hell is that about? Yes, Juve were very unlucky then, many players were out of shape because of injuries or that they had to play through nearly all the games last season because of the insufficience on the bench. Most notably Émerson and Thuram suffered because of those. Bad luck combined with then decent and hard-fighting opponent wasn't the best recipe for success. Besides, I don't even buy the most important game of the season argument, what about Milan-Juve then?

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++Sayy...what? Where did I compare Juventus to Chelsea in this thread?

As a whole yes, however, when looking at the midfield as a single entity, there are a few clubs that have more options. AC Milan, Chelsea, Bayern, Barcelona...the club you seemingly forgot about Inter, and perhaps a couple others have more true options in midfield than we do. IMO we cannot properly replace Vieira or Emerson, as well as Camoranesi in midfield. Now how on earth is this situation okey-dokey???

When you dare to whine about the Juve's material, you automatically compare Juve's material to Chelsea's.

...And as I posted earlier, Chelsea and Milan can be compared with Juve in this case.
Bayern? That's quite interesting. Hmmm, :undecide: I might even agree with that they are in the same class with Juve. Their defense is solid and on the midfield they're pretty much equal, guys like Scholl, Jeremies and Hargreaves aren't any better than Juve's subs. On the attack they lose a bit. Barcelona? No, even their fans agree that the bench isn't wide enough. They're defense is bad compared to some other clubs, while many starters are irreplaceable for them, they can't do anything without some of their stars. inter? Yes, they've got proper subs for their insufficient starters. I thought that's a joke.

As I stated earlier, Vieira OR Émerson can be replaced. Juve even won Bayern and Ajax twice last year without Vieira, remember that? I do. Camoranesi can be replaced too, but probably not at easily as Vieira or Émerson.

Once again I repeat this: No team in the world can replace their best players without the standards of the game evolving and dropping a bit.
And please tell me who exactly would be sufficient subs for the players you mentioned then? You want Cech to be Buffon's sub, Nesta to cover Cannavaro and Cambiasso rotating with Émerson? Not possible. Even Chelsea can't do that.

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++What do I want? I think I want a proper replacement for Vieira and Emerson who can at least do half of what they can. I want a proper replacement for Camoranesi so we do not have to field Nedved out of place on the right flank. And actually I think you have misunderstood me throughout this whole discussion...I'm obviously focused on the options in midfield, and when any objective person looks at the team roster they will say we could use another option in midfield...I think that is obvious.

Look above and read my previous posts again, this isn't getting us anywhere. If an objective person looks at Juve's squad, he'll see that it's quality all over. Juve has won nine games out of ten while struggling through injury-crisis and you complain...

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++What does this have anything to do with what I posted? As I stated before, we cannot just hope for luck to win big games...what kind of attitude is that? Me thinks a complacent attitude, something I detest. You cannot just rely on luck to win everything and hope for it to come around one day...winning starts with hard work. Of course luck does play some part in football, however in reality it's not as important as having a great and hardworking team to begin with.

YOU'VE GOT NO OTHER CHOICE! Any team on the Europe need everything to work if they want to win CL, it's just like World Cup. The others have good material too, the only way to take them out for sure is to buy there whole squads. Besides, what's the point of the competition if we know already who's going to win? You want CL? You need luck, especially for cup competition, that's a fact.

++ [ originally posted by AtotheB ] ++True that, however waiting for luck to help us along is a terrible attitude IMO...even Capello would frown upon that.

It's not waiting for luck, it's hoping for the good result and doing your best, working your nuts to crack day after day. But if half of your starters are injured, you really expect Juve to win? So far the record speaks for itself, Juve won Lecce 3-0 with seven players of their regular line-up injuried.

The thing is that I feel privileged because I support Juve, probably the greatest team the world has ever seen. The current squad is enviable, you still you dare to complain. It truly makes me sad. The thing is that the competition and incalculability is the salt of football and sports, what would be the point of this all if it would be entirely clear from the starters who would win? Your asking for impossible.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Erkka ] ++


So you honestly judge the whole season only through one single game while you just agreed that in single games the luck plays quite large role? What the hell is that about? Yes, Juve were very unlucky then, many players were out of shape because of injuries or that they had to play through nearly all the games last season because of the insufficience on the bench. Most notably Émerson and Thuram suffered because of those. Bad luck combined with then decent and hard-fighting opponent wasn't the best recipe for success. Besides, I don't even buy the most important game of the season argument, what about Milan-Juve then?

That is why I stated "THUS FAR." We have not played Milan yet, obviously...

And how do you concieve the notion that I'm judging the whole season already? Can't say you're making much sense here mate...I'm only looking at the problems aflicting us now and probably in the future.

When you dare to whine about the Juve's material, you automatically compare Juve's material to Chelsea's.

Oh no, how dare me? How dare me to whine that we could have better replacements than Blasi or Giannichedda?

...And as I posted earlier, Chelsea and Milan can be compared with Juve in this case.
Bayern? That's quite interesting. Hmmm, :undecide: I might even agree with that they are in the same class with Juve. Their defense is solid and on the midfield they're pretty much equal, guys like Scholl, Jeremies and Hargreaves aren't any better than Juve's subs. On the attack they lose a bit. Barcelona? No, even their fans agree that the bench isn't wide enough. They're defense is bad compared to some other clubs, while many starters are irreplaceable for them, they can't do anything without some of their stars. inter? Yes, they've got proper subs for their insufficient starters. I thought that's a joke.

There is no point discussing this with you unless you read my posts. Again I'm just talking about the midfield here..

I do not really think Barca fans will complain about their options in MIDFIELD...they are blessed with Van Bommel, Motta, Messi, Iniesta, and Gabri to choose from off the bench...please don't tell me Juventus has better options than that with Blasi, Giannichedda, Olivera, and perhaps Mutu...Magath can call on Scholl (better than any play we can call off the bench), Hargreaves, Jeremies, Karimi, and Bastian Schweinsteiger. Now tell me Bayern does not have more capable options in midfield than us.

Inter's midfield contains insufficient starters? Are you serious?

As I stated earlier, Vieira OR Émerson can be replaced. Juve even won Bayern and Ajax twice last year without Vieira, remember that? I do. Camoranesi can be replaced too, but probably not at easily as Vieira or Émerson.

Sure, they can be replaced...with Giannichedda. A player we brought in on a free and is no better than Blasi and not as good as Appiah IMO...enough said about him.

Look above and read my previous posts again, this isn't getting us anywhere. If an objective person looks at Juve's squad, he'll see that it's quality all over. Juve has won nine games out of ten while struggling through injury-crisis and you complain...

Of course there is quality all over...I have not said anything about the overall quality except for the replacements for our top midfield players. I'm not satisfied with Giannichedda and Blasi and I'm not satisfied with not really having any real replacement for Camoranesi.

YOU'VE GOT NO OTHER CHOICE! Any team on the Europe need everything to work if they want to win CL, it's just like World Cup. The others have good material too, the only way to take them out for sure is to buy there whole squads. Besides, what's the point of the competition if we know already who's going to win? You want CL? You need luck, especially for cup competition, that's a fact.

Did I say anything opposing that? No. Read my posts.

It's not waiting for luck, it's hoping for the good result and doing your best, working your nuts to crack day after day. But if half of your starters are injured, you really expect Juve to win? So far the record speaks for itself, Juve won Lecce 3-0 with seven players of their regular line-up injuried.

Yes we won, playing half-arse as usual.

The thing is that I feel privileged because I support Juve, probably the greatest team the world has ever seen. The current squad is enviable, you still you dare to complain. It truly makes me sad. The thing is that the competition and incalculability is the salt of football and sports, what would be the point of this all if it would be entirely clear from the starters who would win? Your asking for impossible.

Asking for a better option than Giannichedda is impossible? Wow, that makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider he was free.

And I'm just about done with this discussion. ..if you're not going to read my posts there is no point. There probably isn't a point anyway because we just see this issue differently...time will tell us who is exactly right.

 

[Bozi]

right lads lets take this outside and settle it like men ,i am taking bets who's money is on errka? mine is on a to the b:greedy: