Belgium bombings 22-Mar-2016 (6 Viewers)

campionesidd

Senior Member
Mar 16, 2013
15,268
My condolences to the families. People there should not blame muslims, but their government.
Whatever poor country NATO wants to bomb, Belgium is first to sing in
Last year Islamic terror groups conducted terror attacks in Afghanistan, Australia, Bangladesh, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cameroon, Chad, China, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, India, Israel, Kenya, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Syria, Thailand,Tunisia Turkey, USA and Yemen.
How many of these attacks can you blame on the West?
99% of all deaths caused by terrorism last year were by Jihadi groups. Do you not see the problem?
 

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Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,559
Well then the answer is obvious then.
I get it. It's logical, and it's the quick (although dirty) solution. But this is only one part of a long term solution. A long term solution is to be able to integrate.
But unfortunately, looks like Europe is only interested in the first part of the solution. That's not going to work. It's more like kicking the can down the road.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
I get it. It's logical, and it's the quick (although dirty) solution. But this is only one part of a long term solution. A long term solution is to be able to integrate.
But unfortunately, looks like Europe is only interested in the first part of the solution. That's not going to work. It's more like kicking the can down the road.
Long term solution? Get the heck out of the middle east and leave them be. Fightin and bombing that place is not a good long term solution, in fact it's the worst one possible.

Oh and as it is right now there are enough of local nutjobs that cant get integrated for whater reason (both sides at fould), but letting mroe in and thinking now they will integrate is even worse idea. Bite the bullet get the hell out of middle east and don't open the gates to anyone even mildly suspicious and in the long term it will be better.
 

Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,559
Long term solution? Get the heck out of the middle east and leave them be. Fightin and bombing that place is not a good long term solution, in fact it's the worst one possible.

Oh and as it is right now there are enough of local nutjobs that cant get integrated for whater reason (both sides at fould), but letting mroe in and thinking now they will integrate is even worse idea. Bite the bullet get the hell out of middle east and don't open the gates to anyone and in the long term it will be better.
1- It's a very connected world. Leaving Middle East won't really mean you don't get affected. Actually, except a very limited intervention from US, Syria is mostly left to itself. That did not help did it?
If you leave them totally to themselves, chances are they won't come up with a stable state ever. And the worst terrorist organizations are developed in stateless countries, Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria
2- Long term solution for me is to be able to integrate Muslims who currently live within EU boundaries. Not just pretend that this distegration problem don't exist, or is entirely a fault of those Muslims.
 

campionesidd

Senior Member
Mar 16, 2013
15,268
1- It's a very connected world. Leaving Middle East won't really mean you don't get affected. Actually, barring a very limited intervention from US, Syria is mostly left to itself. That did not help did it?
If you leave them totally to themselves, chances are they won't come up with a stable state ever. And the worst terrorist organizations are developed in stateless countries, Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria
2- Long term solution for me is to be able to integrate Muslims who currently live within EU boundaries. Not just pretend that this distegration problem don't exist, or is entirely a fault of those Muslims.
Why is it that people of other faiths (Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, Sikhs, Jews etc) don't seem to have any significant problems with integration?
 

Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,559
Why is it that people of other faiths (Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, Sikhs, Jews etc) don't seem to have any significant problems with integration?
Ha! That was my question a few posts ago too :D
I think their culture is to blame too. But disintegration is not only on them.

EDIT: Chinese have a significant problem with integration as far as I know.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
1. Who the cares if they become stable or not, it really is not our responsibility. They can go and kill each other for as long as they want, they have to get bored by some time don't they? You cannot rush them to a better world, they have to win that themselfs, but as long as we interfere we will interfere with what is best in our interests, so we will support one goverment or the other for some reason and the wheel will keep on spinning.

Plus why interfere, maybe their world for them is better let them live the way they want, would you try to stop some jungle tribe from eating babies when you're in their village? It's their custom let them eat those babies.

2. Of course don't throw away those that live in here, integrete those who live here, then they will invite the ones from middle east, but the ones that will come will come to an already good enviroment, not like now, when they will just make the problem bigger.

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Why is it that people of other faiths (Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, Sikhs, Jews etc) don't seem to have any significant problems with integration?
Jews? Integration? :lol: Good one.
 

Bianconero_Aus

Beppe Marotta Is My God
May 26, 2009
77,009
I'm kind of tired of the picture of this perfect ideal refugee. There are among them filthy medieval psychopaths, and saying let's welcome all in without any checking is most stupid thing germany has done.

All in all the west needs to get the fuck out of other affairs and leave them be and maybe, after 20-30 years it will be better. But for now, at least don't be angry at countries that tries to protect it's borders like hungary did. Fucktards at EU are looking at people like an economic units without any thought that first of all people are cultural animals.

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To be honest if anyone thinks that from the 1 million and counting people that came in were not even one terrorists are a bit crazy, not to mention how there are many many guys coming from afghanistans and other areas that have nothing to do with siria... Refugees from afghanistan that come here to make europe better, just like new mebers with 1 posts from afghanistan and knows every little inside joke on tuz. yeah...
Alan and Voller FFS :lol:
 

Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,559
1. Who the cares if they become stable or not, it really is not our responsibility. They can go and kill each other for as long as they want, they have to get bored by some time don't they? You cannot rush them to a better world, they have to win that themselfs, but as long as we interfere we will interfere with what is best in our interests, so we will support one goverment or the other for some reason and the wheel will keep on spinning.

Plus why interfere, maybe their world for them is better let them live the way they want, would you try to stop some jungle tribe from eating babies when you're in their village? It's their custom let them eat those babies.

2. Of course don't throw away those that live in here, integrete those who live here, then they will invite the ones from middle east, but the ones that will come will come to an already good enviroment, not like now, when they will just make the problem bigger.

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Jews? Integration? :lol:
Because they won't only kill each other. They develop a strong terrorist organization in that stateless anarchist dream. Then they come to you. AlQaeda, ISIS and AlShabab all started off in this environment.
I'm not suggesting west should interfere. But I see many people see this non-intervention as a solution to all of the world's problems. It is not. It's much more complicated.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
Because they just won't kill each other. They develop a strong terrorist organization in that stateless anarchist dream. Then they come to you. AlQaeda, ISIS and AlShabab all started off in this environment.
I'm not suggesting west should interfere. But I see many people see this non-intervention as a solution to all of the world's problems. It is not. It's much more complicated.
Why would they come at you if you have nothing to do with them? They hate us because we give them a reason to hate us.

Oh no, it's not solution to all of the worlds problems, because I think there is so much shit created there by us that realisticly it is impossible to just leave them be, but it would be interesting I think, and in the long term it would be for the best.
 

Kopanja

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2015
5,457
Why would they come at you if you have nothing to do with them? They hate us because we give them a reason to hate us.
If you won't give them valid reason they would invent one if they really need. We did nothing here in Eastern Ukraine to make Russians hate us and wage war here, but TV gave them 99 and 1 reasons. It's always useful to have a sworn enemy in politics.
 

Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,559
Why would they come at you if you have nothing to do with them? They hate us because we give them a reason to hate us.
first of all, that ship has already sailed. They will blame the west forever.
second, are you familiar with ISIS ideology? they very much want a confrontation with west to start off their post-apocalyptic world. Similar thing can be said of otyher Islamist groups. Why did AlQaeda attack US? US actually helped them end Russian occupation. I can't characterize their hate as just a reaction to what west did there.

This article is a good read on ISIS ideology.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,400
The place they are coming from are a beehive full of terrorist. They can import trained specialists, intelligence guys or whatever recruiters or who knows what from that place...

I'm not saying most are terrorists there, in fact I think big majority are not, but majority in that are leeches that are looking for free givaaways. But my point is screen the shit them before letting in, they are coming from a biggest hotspot of terrorism on planet earth, so to think that from over a million there might be quite a few retards that want to train someone to blow up or do it themself is not such a far fetched theory.
I agree with you in principle namely that it is stupid to let in thousands of people into your country (let alone an internally open EU) without having the right vetting processes in place. This becomes more important when these people come from terror hotspots and when the terrorists themselves say they will sneak their guys in amongst the refugees. It is crazy that thousands from terrorhotspots are allowed in for life, when a tourist who wishes to visit the EU has to provide their passports, bank statements, undergo biometric test, provide proof of health insurance, proof of university enrollment or HR letter from employers, undergo background check, and provide the whole trip itinerary with hotel bookings and what not and still sometimes do not get the temporary tourist visa out of security concerns. I am not saying its unfair, I am saying it weird that with tourists the authorities give incredible attention to the security concern but completely disregard it with the refugees. So we do agree in principle.

However, I think all these visa security vetting processes can do is reduce the threat of incoming terrorists minimally. Other domestic policies should have a larger effect. The ghettoization of muslim communities has to be combated. Incoming refugees should be distributed across multiple towns and cities (they are here already so those who made it here are coming in sooner or later), they should be taught the language and provided support to integrate well with the society rather than live by themselves in a closed community. Mosques should definitely be monitored for hatespeech. If the friday sermons are anything like what I recall hearing in Egypt then they must be shut down. Policies of this type would alleviate some of the threat posed from internal jihadis but again it wouldn't cut it enough.


What the west has to do is go to war with ISIS, a serious war. What differentiates ISIS from any other terror group is that they were hoping to establish a state and they succeeded at doing so. They have established a Caliphate system that implements Sharia law, a system that we were taught is "the ideal" ever since we were kids. We were taught that this system produced unprecedented prosperity for the region, it broke the byzantine empire and the persian empire, it cast terror and commanded respect from the non-muslim empires, it was powerful, just, and prosperous for muslims and non-muslims under its sovereignty. It was the system ordained by good and its success in the past is proof of its divine origins.

ISIS are tapping into that sentiment and are re-establishing that dream world again. This sets them apart from any other jihadist group in modern history. They are controlling massive lands, and have established state institutions. They have their own regulatory bodies, tax collectors, judiciary, police force, military, legal code, a capital city, industries like oil and weaving, a department of foreign affairs, ministries everything that you need for a state. They are a state, a caliphate and they are striking fear into the hearts of the entire world. This gives them credibility and legitimacy as a true caliphate in the eyes of many. No wonder the jihadis in Sinai and in Libya (who were not part of ISIS) have pledged allegiance to them. This credibility is exactly what must be destroyed.

You don't destroy that by propaganda, the media cant even stop people from supporting Donald Trump despite their best smearing efforts. If you want to take away their credibility and stop their growing strength and popularity amongst muslims then you must cut off the head of the monster. Undo all the work that they have done. Take their capital city from them; take every big city of any symbolic religious, historical or even economic significance. They must be reduced to a mere group of jihadis trying to avoid arrest by the authorities

Destroy their institutions. Revert them back into a rebel underground group like any other terror cell, don't let them have a state. This takes full-fledged boot on the grounds war and it shouldn't take much if the US military is seriously involved and to finally put their big defense budget to work rather than just store advanced weapons in hangars and inventories. They have done it before to much more mature and richer states like Saddam's Ghaddafi's and others.

In my opinion this war is going to happen sooner or later. The west can have it now when ISIS is still small and weak and it would take 30,000 or so boots on the ground or they can wait until ISIS is bigger, has more credibility and support amongst muslims and have better funding and organizational skills to do more terror attacks. If they wait it will be a bigger war. They should kill the demon now before it grows. If they wait until their hands are forced it will be a massive war with much more than 30k boots needed on the ground.

So yes domestic policies and security policies are needed to reduce the threat but ISIS will only get better and more appealing if thats all what the west does. The only way is foreign policy: a serious war.
 

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