Arturo Vidal (71 Viewers)
- Thread starter Azzurri7
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Vidal is not a club legend by any stretch. He was an important piece of a revival for 4 years, but that's it...
He's not Del Piero, a Gigi, a Chiellini, a Trezeguet, a Nedved, a Marchisio, a Conte, a Cabrini, a Boniperti, a Sivori, a Charles, a Scirea, a Zoff, a Rossi, a Ferrara, a Baggio, a Platini, Gentile, a Combi, an Orsi, a Tardelli, a Bettega.... even a Pirlo, or a Zidane.
We have an epic list of club legends. Why the heck would anyone want Vidal associated with such legendary names? He doesn't belong at all one this list. As far as players responsible for our revival, let's talk about the players who stuck with us through hell, and became massive parts of the revival. Chiellini, Marchisio, Gigi. Those are legends, not Vidal.
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Your argument absolutely falls apart if you use Milan as any metric at all. Because Milan is inarguably superior to Bayern Munich if you regard CL as the only real important part in classifying club histories. They have 2 more CL, and 7 less league titles. So how is Milan superior to Bayern, inferior to Juve, but Juve is inferior to Bayern?
Ridiculous premise. There is only 1 club in football that has a history inarguably better than Juventus. Real Madrid. And they were basically gifted everything for years by the Franco regime.
Absolute joke that any Juventus fan would even suggest Bayern "might" have a better history than us. You so overrate the CL beyond all rational reason. It's ridiculous. Especially seeing as Bayern won 3 of their CL back in the mid-70s, when CL wasn't important at all to most clubs. It was secondary to the league. Obviously. CL only took on it's massive importance in the 90s when it expanded. Add to this that for much of history 2nd-4th place teams in the league wouldn't even qualify for CL, so the "lesser" cup competitions in Europe were contested by top teams also means those competitions were very important, considering non-league winners win CL all the time nowadays. Guess what, Hist, Barca wouldn't have even been in the CL last year back in the 70s and 80s because Atletico won the league the previous season. Neither would the unstoppable Bayern Munich of 2012-13... Guess what, Dortmund won the league in 11-12, so Bayern would have played in the Europa back then. So yes, the secondary European competitions from the 70s, 80s and early 90s matter a ton. Only a fool would say otherwise. Two of the most dominant teams in recent memory wouldn't have even qualified to play in CL, which means there were $#@!ing amazing teams playing the secondary cups when we won our 3 Europas/UEFA Cups. Don't be so ridiculous.
An objective measure according to your own standards of why Serie A is massively better historically than Bundesliga... 12 CL to 7 CL. Most of ours won since 1980. Bundesliga has won 3 CL since 1975. Serie A has 3 giants of football slugging it out. Bundesliga has been a 1 team show for most its history, there isn't a second historically great club from Bundesliga. It's a joke of a league for most its history, unlike Serie A.
FFS, calling Bayern's history better than ours is embarrassing for a Juventus fan.
He's not Del Piero, a Gigi, a Chiellini, a Trezeguet, a Nedved, a Marchisio, a Conte, a Cabrini, a Boniperti, a Sivori, a Charles, a Scirea, a Zoff, a Rossi, a Ferrara, a Baggio, a Platini, Gentile, a Combi, an Orsi, a Tardelli, a Bettega.... even a Pirlo, or a Zidane.
We have an epic list of club legends. Why the heck would anyone want Vidal associated with such legendary names? He doesn't belong at all one this list. As far as players responsible for our revival, let's talk about the players who stuck with us through hell, and became massive parts of the revival. Chiellini, Marchisio, Gigi. Those are legends, not Vidal.
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Your argument absolutely falls apart if you use Milan as any metric at all. Because Milan is inarguably superior to Bayern Munich if you regard CL as the only real important part in classifying club histories. They have 2 more CL, and 7 less league titles. So how is Milan superior to Bayern, inferior to Juve, but Juve is inferior to Bayern?
Ridiculous premise. There is only 1 club in football that has a history inarguably better than Juventus. Real Madrid. And they were basically gifted everything for years by the Franco regime.
Absolute joke that any Juventus fan would even suggest Bayern "might" have a better history than us. You so overrate the CL beyond all rational reason. It's ridiculous. Especially seeing as Bayern won 3 of their CL back in the mid-70s, when CL wasn't important at all to most clubs. It was secondary to the league. Obviously. CL only took on it's massive importance in the 90s when it expanded. Add to this that for much of history 2nd-4th place teams in the league wouldn't even qualify for CL, so the "lesser" cup competitions in Europe were contested by top teams also means those competitions were very important, considering non-league winners win CL all the time nowadays. Guess what, Hist, Barca wouldn't have even been in the CL last year back in the 70s and 80s because Atletico won the league the previous season. Neither would the unstoppable Bayern Munich of 2012-13... Guess what, Dortmund won the league in 11-12, so Bayern would have played in the Europa back then. So yes, the secondary European competitions from the 70s, 80s and early 90s matter a ton. Only a fool would say otherwise. Two of the most dominant teams in recent memory wouldn't have even qualified to play in CL, which means there were $#@!ing amazing teams playing the secondary cups when we won our 3 Europas/UEFA Cups. Don't be so ridiculous.
An objective measure according to your own standards of why Serie A is massively better historically than Bundesliga... 12 CL to 7 CL. Most of ours won since 1980. Bundesliga has won 3 CL since 1975. Serie A has 3 giants of football slugging it out. Bundesliga has been a 1 team show for most its history, there isn't a second historically great club from Bundesliga. It's a joke of a league for most its history, unlike Serie A.
FFS, calling Bayern's history better than ours is embarrassing for a Juventus fan.
Again with Juve and Bayern you have two teams that are dominating locally. Keep in mind that when you say Serie A is much tougher to win you are basing that specifically on the 80s and 90s while our league wins come all the way since the 1920s where neither of us have a clue what the state of Serie A relative to the bundesliga was.
Supposing Serie A has always been better, you have two teams that dominate locally (they have 17 cups to out 10 btw), where we have the tougher league and they have a much better European record. Depending on which one you value more you will see one team as better or you will see the teams as equals.
Those who think Bayern has a slight advantage will point out that Bayern won the CL at the times where it became the undoubted number one trophy twice and regularly featured as one of the favorites throughout that period (Calciopoli fucked us in that regard). They won it 3 times when it wasn't weighed as heavily but was nevertheless the most prestigious european trophy.
They will also point out that German football was dismantled during and after the second world war and took various regional forms if at all which explains the gap in Bayern's league record.
In any case, the point you continue to ignore is more concerned with the present. In the present they are the better club and a model to look up to and so you shouldnt feel insulted by Vidal seeing it as a move up.
And you continue to ignore the fact that winning a league and consistently going on deep European cup runs, and into European finals shows much more than how many times one has won that 1-off cup final. Cup finals require luck. Hence the reason you have teams with very disparate records in finals. Some teams have luck. We've had terrible luck. The 1-0 loss to Hamburg in which we were massive favourites and outplayed them. Real Madrid and their offside goal. The bullshit yellow that made Nedved miss the Milan final. Even last year against Barca, Pogba not being awarded a penalty. Much more indicative of overall history of a club is league title wins in the strongest league in the world... And our league has won far more European titles than Bundesliga. It's not even close. 12 to 7 in CL, and 48 to 29 in all European titles. Our league is just vastly stronger for the entirety of footballing history.
And they don't have a much better European record. We've won more overall European titles. So in actuality, they have a better CL record, we have more trophies. Many of them during the era where 2nd place teams from previous seasons played in UEFA Cup instead of CL.
Again, I repeat, a Juventus fan saying Bayern has a better history is, in this case, behaving like a joke of a Juventus fan. Basing it on one single trophy is a joke.
Regardless of all that, I could care less about Vidal. He's an ignorant buffoon. I'm grateful for the 4 years he was here, and the 2 years he was a world class player here, but I honestly don't care about the rest of his career. I'm indifferent. He'll certainly never be a Juventus legend anywhere near the likes of the players I listed.
And they don't have a much better European record. We've won more overall European titles. So in actuality, they have a better CL record, we have more trophies. Many of them during the era where 2nd place teams from previous seasons played in UEFA Cup instead of CL.
Again, I repeat, a Juventus fan saying Bayern has a better history is, in this case, behaving like a joke of a Juventus fan. Basing it on one single trophy is a joke.
Regardless of all that, I could care less about Vidal. He's an ignorant buffoon. I'm grateful for the 4 years he was here, and the 2 years he was a world class player here, but I honestly don't care about the rest of his career. I'm indifferent. He'll certainly never be a Juventus legend anywhere near the likes of the players I listed.
Do you ignore all facts that don't support your argument? Juve have more overall European trophies than Bayern. Bayern has 3 more CL titles. Hence the reason I still give the edge to Bayern in Europe, but it's not a case of "much better"... Even if you don't value other European titles they were quite valued in the past, as 2nd place team from previous year participated in UEFA cup in the past. The CL wasn't always so bloated.
For reference, the 2 teams everyone refers to as so unbeatable Bayern 12/13 and Barca 14/15 wouldn't have even qualified for CL before the mid-90s. The second place team played UEFA cup. So yeah, that trophy was damn valuable when we were winning it in the 80s and early 90s.
So sure Bayern's record is a bit better in Europe, but saying far better is ridiculous.
For reference, the 2 teams everyone refers to as so unbeatable Bayern 12/13 and Barca 14/15 wouldn't have even qualified for CL before the mid-90s. The second place team played UEFA cup. So yeah, that trophy was damn valuable when we were winning it in the 80s and early 90s.
So sure Bayern's record is a bit better in Europe, but saying far better is ridiculous.