Andrea Pirlo - CM - AC Milan (17 Viewers)

Aquilani or Pirlo?

  • Aquilani

  • Pirlo

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JuveJay

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
#641
Mar 6, 2007
75,013
#641
Are we talking about Arsenal here? I don't agree with you mate, Wenger landed on his feet with a back five of Seaman - Dixon - Adams - Keown - Winterburn, and built his genius work on top by developing the rest of the team and his philosophy of young players. Vieira and co rubbed shoulders with these experienced players and understood what it took to win, once that old guard left the club lost it's steel and spirit.

Now they are stuck in a vicious cycle. He is constantly trying to develop players and in his mind he does not see winning the PL or CL as a job requirement, you can find quotes of him saying this. So the Arsenal team remains naive, soft even, with the personnel they have. Everyone knows that Fabregas will leave in the next season or two because of this, the club doesn't win anything, and Wenger will say 'we have Wilshere' and put another kid alongside him, repeat cycle. It's not a blueprint for success anymore, in terms of winning, it's a blueprint for developing players.
 

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Lo-Pan

Lo-Pan

Disciple of Gonzo
#642
Feb 11, 2009
2,788
#642
avoiding ahmed, as he seems to work through google, not experience or knowledge...and focusing on your words, Jay...your words make sense, but so not crush my own stated stance of arsenal, as a club, having a blueprint for success, and one, as a juventino, i am envious of. AO yes...that bluerprint doesnt work 'anymore' other than proving joyful in terms of developing players, but my point was and is...they HAD a blueprint for success, put all the required elements into place to make it happen, had success, and even though they have fallen definitely behind chelsea and Man U, over the last 4-5 years, they remain, at least successful in some ways...as in developing players, having a serious say in several competitions, and proving financially efficient.

What you say of Wenger landing on such a solid base, could easily be said of ferguson...which isn't an argument against you, more an observation. Although I think only the steel has been lost, not the spirit. I cannot say I have ever seen arsenal play without spirit, without desire and belief to win...without steel???? yes, often in recent years.

Still...i would rather juventus were in the stance of arsenal, than what we have been since 2008. and i do believe their 'project' is working massively better than ours...
 
Osman

Osman

Koul Khara!
#643
Aug 30, 2002
61,507
#643
Arsenal has failed to succeed for 7 years, can share your enthusiasm for their overall way to approach football, but its basically what Jay said, and DEFENITELY lack winning mentality/spirit or desire in current team. No real characters and leaders in the club, and with a coach who flat out shows little to no winning mentality, I'm not suprised either. What they have gone wrong in last half decade is selling key players (or simply moving on due to age) and replacing them with hapless eternal talents who NEED to play with and be guided by the very players they replaced.
 
Osman

Osman

Koul Khara!
#645
Aug 30, 2002
61,507
#645
Arsenal is prolly the team I watch most games of besides Juve, no, they have anything but leaders in their team, far from it.
 
Lo-Pan

Lo-Pan

Disciple of Gonzo
#646
Feb 11, 2009
2,788
#646
well, melo...its very obvious to anyone who both understands football and follows the premiership, that arsenal have a team of massive talent, but lack leaders. That isn't up for debate. its a glaring fact.

If people are debating arsenal's blueprint of now and a year or two back in time, ok...i can agree, that they are mainly brilliant at producing and developing wicked footballers, but have not managed to develop or procure any true leaders. but if the discussion is about the last decade, then...i stick to what i wrote a few posts back. depends on how far you are focusing your analytical gaze.

and as for wenger, if focusing on the now, or year or two previous, showing no winning mentality, thats bullshit...he sticks up for the kids, and that is all he has. Wenger has a history of quality and success, and he knows better than to say 'yes, my squad is too young, and too lacking leadership and spirit'. he would not have had the DEFINITE success he has had, managed to remain in the top four in europe's most cmpetitive league, spending a fraction of the clubs around him, if he was prone to injuring the spirit and morale of his young charges...i still think he has done a marvellous job. Had he spent like chelsea, or man u, i reckon he would have won more, in recent years. but considering he didnt, he has still, continued to, at least, develop raw talent into wicked players. YES, i agree hugely, that they have failed to sign or develop any natural leaders, but when i look at what man u and chelsea especially have spent, and yet arsenal have still hung onto their coat tails and produced consistently entertaining football, never looked like falling out ofthe top four, opened a new stadium which sets them up financially for many future decades...yes...i still greatly admire their blueprint.
 
Osman

Osman

Koul Khara!
#647
Aug 30, 2002
61,507
#647
Your view of Arsenal is so outdated, if it was 5-6 years ago, where they had less money then competition and was still quite competetive, I would agree. But its been a glaring vicious cycle perpuated by Wenger, Arsenal HAS funds, but he has completely ignored to utilize it or go for direct improvements, he has been stuck in his overindulging of nonstop developing the next generation and ignoring making the current generation as best it could be. It has been 5-6 years where the issues and problems of the team is obvious, but he keeps ignoring year after year, with the exception of some good signings, he generally just lost sight of truly going for titles.

He flat out downplays it, and makes the same excuses after every year. Its gotten old, and its mainly so because the Arsenal board simply has no set goals for title asipirations, otherwise they would pressured him more (last season and this season he has been questionned alot more though, and thats because almost everyone had enough of the same routine). Wenger is my favourite coach prolly, but its ridicolous to totally ignore the clear flaws of he has done things for years and years. My brother is an Arsenal fan, and so is several of my friends, and they have increasingly gotten more and more frustrated of the empty promises and the total lack of will of making the team truly competetive.
 
Ahmed

Ahmed

Principino
#648
Sep 3, 2006
47,928
#648
JuveJay said:
Are we talking about Arsenal here? I don't agree with you mate, Wenger landed on his feet with a back five of Seaman - Dixon - Adams - Keown - Winterburn, and built his genius work on top by developing the rest of the team and his philosophy of young players. Vieira and co rubbed shoulders with these experienced players and understood what it took to win, once that old guard left the club lost it's steel and spirit.

Now they are stuck in a vicious cycle. He is constantly trying to develop players and in his mind he does not see winning the PL or CL as a job requirement, you can find quotes of him saying this. So the Arsenal team remains naive, soft even, with the personnel they have. Everyone knows that Fabregas will leave in the next season or two because of this, the club doesn't win anything, and Wenger will say 'we have Wilshere' and put another kid alongside him, repeat cycle. It's not a blueprint for success anymore, in terms of winning, it's a blueprint for developing players.
Click to expand...
yep, fair point about that...but he did mould it after they gradually left too.
 
Cronios

Cronios

Juventolog
#650
Jun 7, 2004
27,519
#650
K.O. said:
There's no such thing called blueprint for success.
Click to expand...
Yes there is and its $, as Inter and Chelsea (and the rest of the petrol-financed EPL clubs, as well as the rising German clubs) has proven that... thats the truth and unfortunately thats all there is to it...
Having managers with a clue about football also helps, you can be more efficient and rise to competitiveness faster and longer, esp if we are talking about top teams.

We lack both and we are destined to fail some more. Considering the new system, they more we overpay for average players, the more we cripple our club in the long club.
And as we are one of the worst spenders in Europe, we can only hope for the lesser evil...
IMO atm we need a leader more than everything else and we need to keep those delusional ITalian fans, to keep hoping for tittles (even though our board doesnt and we all know how unrealistic this is)
But as long as the delusional fans are keep paying for the TV rights, that keeps our boat floating...
So the Toni's, Barzagli's, Grosso's and Pirlos will be keep coming and they will serve an essential of the pitch role...

Aquilani is better overall for our club, but since we dont aspire to become competitive, Pirlo is the player our owners need to keep this average club earning like a big club!
 
Cronios

Cronios

Juventolog
#654
Jun 7, 2004
27,519
#654
Because we are not aiming to good players, but Italian ones who can appease to to our Italian fans.
Aquilani and Pirlo both have high prestige values, earned in the NT, it just happens that Aqui has a few more years ahead of him, before he expires...
 
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