Aircraft (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter ZoSo
- Start date
Oh man, thats very very relative.
Making the warhead itself is not easy, it took the usa and russia a while to develop it, where as several other nations have been trying for a long time.
Then comes the propulsion.
When we talk "nukes" in the big terms, we talk about an intercontinental ballistic missle. They launch out of orbit, then re-enter and whack down.
Basically an icbm should be able to launch a satallite. How many country's can do that ? right.
Now once you are in the handfull of nations that can deploy an icmb, there is the countermeasure. Shooting 'm down. This is the tricky part. How can you device an icbm that cannot be shot down ?
That in essence, is what that russian program is about.
But its not just icbm's. Smaller tactical nukes are terribly effiicient anti navel. If you can keep it from beeing shot down
Thats the "sunburn" basically. small nuclear anti navel rocket thats extremely hard to intercept
These two, are the applications of nukes
Making the warhead itself is not easy, it took the usa and russia a while to develop it, where as several other nations have been trying for a long time.
Then comes the propulsion.
When we talk "nukes" in the big terms, we talk about an intercontinental ballistic missle. They launch out of orbit, then re-enter and whack down.
Basically an icbm should be able to launch a satallite. How many country's can do that ? right.
Now once you are in the handfull of nations that can deploy an icmb, there is the countermeasure. Shooting 'm down. This is the tricky part. How can you device an icbm that cannot be shot down ?
That in essence, is what that russian program is about.
But its not just icbm's. Smaller tactical nukes are terribly effiicient anti navel. If you can keep it from beeing shot down
Thats the "sunburn" basically. small nuclear anti navel rocket thats extremely hard to intercept
These two, are the applications of nukes
I could say you are looking at this from strong pro russian viewpoint which is ok, but it's certainly not objective. an objective viewpoint would be one of neutrality. just because you think you're right doesn't mean you are (and I'm not saying I'm right either), just don't go all 'peasant' and keep it civil ok? 
many of the things regarding these aircraft are classified and there are probably some capabilities we will never know about or maybe for a long long time like the electronic warfare capabilities and actual stealth, max thrust, speed, ceiling etc.
the russians are not so 'in' with the chinese you like think. ok, so the J-20 does look like mikoyan 1.44 but for all you know they could have just sold them the plane without explaining how to build any of it, which is especially important. the 1.44 also didn't get a massive amount of funding so it is unlikely that the avionics are much more advanced than say 4.5gen fighter. also, don't forget that russians and chinese will be competing for foreign sales of aircraft and russians will be unlikely to want to help their competitors like that. russia has already got angry at china for copying one of their engine designs.
actually the general consensus is that us avionics including radars are generally better, infact the israelis are also very good in this field, but russians might be better at making sams like s-400. if a ground based sam will struggle get a lock on F-22 from 50km there is no way a PAK FA can get lock on within that distance. maybe the L band radar could slightly detect F-22 from that range and further but this band of radar is inaccurate and you can bet it won't be able to get a lock until X-band detection or infrared detection (maybe within 25km for IRST). F-22 has much higher level of stealth than PAK FA and F-22 has better radar so most likely F-22 will get lock on first, but the effectiveness of the missiles (maybe 50km) at this range is not so good. some people also doubt whether the russian radar has 'low probability of intercept mode' meaning it might be very easy to detect the PAK FA when the radar is on. the US radars are very good at this and helps them get 'first look, first shot, first kill'.
FA18s I'm not sure about but they are probably stopgap measures because the electronic warfare suite of F-35s will be much more advanced. F-35 will be even more advanced than F-22 in some areas and it is a much more capable airplane than the media wants you to believe. obviously it won't be truly dominant in A2A like the F-22 but it still has many great capabilties. it can even fire at planes behind with AIM-9X and helmet targeting. russian RVV-SD can also do this by 'flipping' when it exits weapon bay.
most likely US navy could shoot down a sunburn missile, especially when they have the new zumwalt destroyers, but AEGIS system is also very good. the problem with these systems is that you can easily defeat them by a firing a massive amount of missiles at them to overhwelm, which is what someone like russia/china etc would do. this probably won't be overcome until directed energy weapons (i.e. lasers) come into full force as point defense weapons on ships. the technology is still relatively undeveloped at the moment but is making good progress in the last 15 years. railguns are more advanced right now than lasers.
third point I agree, the detection ranges will still probably be too far for any missiles to be effective (unless a lot of missiles are fired) so either it will end up in dogfight (who knows what will happen here, also depends a lot on pilot skill) or they will just run out of missiles and fly away to save the plane.
f22 definitely had a lot of flaws, but most of them are ironed out now, even the oxygen issue. turns out it was actually a valve on the pilot's vest and not the actual plane so the problem was 'easy' to fix. the biggest problem remains the RAM paint which is a lot of work to maintain. the F-35 is much better for this than the F-22.
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Mig35 is a good plane no doubt it is a probably good match for planes like F15 stike eagle/silent eagle, eurofighter and FA18 super hornet but for a 5th gen fighter it will basically be like clubbing baby seals. the mig35 will never even detect one of these stealth planes because the stealth plane(s) will see the mig first, fire its missile(s) then head back. it is basically 'old' technology now; the avionics are good but it is not a true stealth airframe. still a very capable plane but outclassed by the most modern ones.
many of the things regarding these aircraft are classified and there are probably some capabilities we will never know about or maybe for a long long time like the electronic warfare capabilities and actual stealth, max thrust, speed, ceiling etc. the russians are not so 'in' with the chinese you like think. ok, so the J-20 does look like mikoyan 1.44 but for all you know they could have just sold them the plane without explaining how to build any of it, which is especially important. the 1.44 also didn't get a massive amount of funding so it is unlikely that the avionics are much more advanced than say 4.5gen fighter. also, don't forget that russians and chinese will be competing for foreign sales of aircraft and russians will be unlikely to want to help their competitors like that. russia has already got angry at china for copying one of their engine designs.
actually the general consensus is that us avionics including radars are generally better, infact the israelis are also very good in this field, but russians might be better at making sams like s-400. if a ground based sam will struggle get a lock on F-22 from 50km there is no way a PAK FA can get lock on within that distance. maybe the L band radar could slightly detect F-22 from that range and further but this band of radar is inaccurate and you can bet it won't be able to get a lock until X-band detection or infrared detection (maybe within 25km for IRST). F-22 has much higher level of stealth than PAK FA and F-22 has better radar so most likely F-22 will get lock on first, but the effectiveness of the missiles (maybe 50km) at this range is not so good. some people also doubt whether the russian radar has 'low probability of intercept mode' meaning it might be very easy to detect the PAK FA when the radar is on. the US radars are very good at this and helps them get 'first look, first shot, first kill'.
FA18s I'm not sure about but they are probably stopgap measures because the electronic warfare suite of F-35s will be much more advanced. F-35 will be even more advanced than F-22 in some areas and it is a much more capable airplane than the media wants you to believe. obviously it won't be truly dominant in A2A like the F-22 but it still has many great capabilties. it can even fire at planes behind with AIM-9X and helmet targeting. russian RVV-SD can also do this by 'flipping' when it exits weapon bay.
most likely US navy could shoot down a sunburn missile, especially when they have the new zumwalt destroyers, but AEGIS system is also very good. the problem with these systems is that you can easily defeat them by a firing a massive amount of missiles at them to overhwelm, which is what someone like russia/china etc would do. this probably won't be overcome until directed energy weapons (i.e. lasers) come into full force as point defense weapons on ships. the technology is still relatively undeveloped at the moment but is making good progress in the last 15 years. railguns are more advanced right now than lasers.
third point I agree, the detection ranges will still probably be too far for any missiles to be effective (unless a lot of missiles are fired) so either it will end up in dogfight (who knows what will happen here, also depends a lot on pilot skill) or they will just run out of missiles and fly away to save the plane.
f22 definitely had a lot of flaws, but most of them are ironed out now, even the oxygen issue. turns out it was actually a valve on the pilot's vest and not the actual plane so the problem was 'easy' to fix. the biggest problem remains the RAM paint which is a lot of work to maintain. the F-35 is much better for this than the F-22.
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Mig35 is a good plane no doubt it is a probably good match for planes like F15 stike eagle/silent eagle, eurofighter and FA18 super hornet but for a 5th gen fighter it will basically be like clubbing baby seals. the mig35 will never even detect one of these stealth planes because the stealth plane(s) will see the mig first, fire its missile(s) then head back. it is basically 'old' technology now; the avionics are good but it is not a true stealth airframe. still a very capable plane but outclassed by the most modern ones.
I could say you are looking at this from strong pro russian viewpoint which is ok, but it's certainly not objective. an objective viewpoint would be one of neutrality. just because you think you're right doesn't mean you are (and I'm not saying I'm right either), just don't go all 'peasant' and keep it civil ok? many of the things regarding these aircraft are classified and there are probably some capabilities we will never know about or maybe for a long long time like the electronic warfare capabilities and actual stealth, max thrust, speed, ceiling etc.
the russians are not so 'in' with the chinese you like think. ok, so the J-20 does look like mikoyan 1.44 but for all you know they could have just sold them the plane without explaining how to build any of it, which is especially important. the 1.44 also didn't get a massive amount of funding so it is unlikely that the avionics are much more advanced than say 4.5gen fighter. also, don't forget that russians and chinese will be competing for foreign sales of aircraft and russians will be unlikely to want to help their competitors like that. russia has already got angry at china for copying one of their engine designs.
actually the general consensus is that us avionics including radars are generally better, infact the israelis are also very good in this field, but russians might be better at making sams like s-400. if a ground based sam will struggle get a lock on F-22 from 50km there is no way a PAK FA can get lock on within that distance. maybe the L band radar could slightly detect F-22 from that range and further but this band of radar is inaccurate and you can bet it won't be able to get a lock until X-band detection or infrared detection (maybe within 25km for IRST). F-22 has much higher level of stealth than PAK FA and F-22 has better radar so most likely F-22 will get lock on first, but the effectiveness of the missiles (maybe 50km) at this range is not so good. some people also doubt whether the russian radar has 'low probability of intercept mode' meaning it might be very easy to detect the PAK FA when the radar is on. the US radars are very good at this and helps them get 'first look, first shot, first kill'.
FA18s I'm not sure about but they are probably stopgap measures because the electronic warfare suite of F-35s will be much more advanced. F-35 will be even more advanced than F-22 in some areas and it is a much more capable airplane than the media wants you to believe. obviously it won't be truly dominant in A2A like the F-22 but it still has many great capabilties. it can even fire at planes behind with AIM-9X and helmet targeting. russian RVV-SD can also do this by 'flipping' when it exits weapon bay.
most likely US navy could shoot down a sunburn missile, especially when they have the new zumwalt destroyers, but AEGIS system is also very good. the problem with these systems is that you can easily defeat them by a firing a massive amount of missiles at them to overhwelm, which is what someone like russia/china etc would do. this probably won't be overcome until directed energy weapons (i.e. lasers) come into full force as point defense weapons on ships. the technology is still relatively undeveloped at the moment but is making good progress in the last 15 years. railguns are more advanced right now than lasers.
third point I agree, the detection ranges will still probably be too far for any missiles to be effective (unless a lot of missiles are fired) so either it will end up in dogfight (who knows what will happen here, also depends a lot on pilot skill) or they will just run out of missiles and fly away to save the plane.
f22 definitely had a lot of flaws, but most of them are ironed out now, even the oxygen issue. turns out it was actually a valve on the pilot's vest and not the actual plane so the problem was 'easy' to fix. the biggest problem remains the RAM paint which is a lot of work to maintain. the F-35 is much better for this than the F-22.
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Mig35 is a good plane no doubt it is a probably good match for planes like F15 stike eagle/silent eagle, eurofighter and FA18 super hornet but for a 5th gen fighter it will basically be like clubbing baby seals. the mig35 will never even detect one of these stealth planes because the stealth plane(s) will see the mig first, fire its missile(s) then head back. it is basically 'old' technology now; the avionics are good but it is not a true stealth airframe. still a very capable plane but outclassed by the most modern ones.
many of the things regarding these aircraft are classified and there are probably some capabilities we will never know about or maybe for a long long time like the electronic warfare capabilities and actual stealth, max thrust, speed, ceiling etc. the russians are not so 'in' with the chinese you like think. ok, so the J-20 does look like mikoyan 1.44 but for all you know they could have just sold them the plane without explaining how to build any of it, which is especially important. the 1.44 also didn't get a massive amount of funding so it is unlikely that the avionics are much more advanced than say 4.5gen fighter. also, don't forget that russians and chinese will be competing for foreign sales of aircraft and russians will be unlikely to want to help their competitors like that. russia has already got angry at china for copying one of their engine designs.
actually the general consensus is that us avionics including radars are generally better, infact the israelis are also very good in this field, but russians might be better at making sams like s-400. if a ground based sam will struggle get a lock on F-22 from 50km there is no way a PAK FA can get lock on within that distance. maybe the L band radar could slightly detect F-22 from that range and further but this band of radar is inaccurate and you can bet it won't be able to get a lock until X-band detection or infrared detection (maybe within 25km for IRST). F-22 has much higher level of stealth than PAK FA and F-22 has better radar so most likely F-22 will get lock on first, but the effectiveness of the missiles (maybe 50km) at this range is not so good. some people also doubt whether the russian radar has 'low probability of intercept mode' meaning it might be very easy to detect the PAK FA when the radar is on. the US radars are very good at this and helps them get 'first look, first shot, first kill'.
FA18s I'm not sure about but they are probably stopgap measures because the electronic warfare suite of F-35s will be much more advanced. F-35 will be even more advanced than F-22 in some areas and it is a much more capable airplane than the media wants you to believe. obviously it won't be truly dominant in A2A like the F-22 but it still has many great capabilties. it can even fire at planes behind with AIM-9X and helmet targeting. russian RVV-SD can also do this by 'flipping' when it exits weapon bay.
most likely US navy could shoot down a sunburn missile, especially when they have the new zumwalt destroyers, but AEGIS system is also very good. the problem with these systems is that you can easily defeat them by a firing a massive amount of missiles at them to overhwelm, which is what someone like russia/china etc would do. this probably won't be overcome until directed energy weapons (i.e. lasers) come into full force as point defense weapons on ships. the technology is still relatively undeveloped at the moment but is making good progress in the last 15 years. railguns are more advanced right now than lasers.
third point I agree, the detection ranges will still probably be too far for any missiles to be effective (unless a lot of missiles are fired) so either it will end up in dogfight (who knows what will happen here, also depends a lot on pilot skill) or they will just run out of missiles and fly away to save the plane.
f22 definitely had a lot of flaws, but most of them are ironed out now, even the oxygen issue. turns out it was actually a valve on the pilot's vest and not the actual plane so the problem was 'easy' to fix. the biggest problem remains the RAM paint which is a lot of work to maintain. the F-35 is much better for this than the F-22.
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Mig35 is a good plane no doubt it is a probably good match for planes like F15 stike eagle/silent eagle, eurofighter and FA18 super hornet but for a 5th gen fighter it will basically be like clubbing baby seals. the mig35 will never even detect one of these stealth planes because the stealth plane(s) will see the mig first, fire its missile(s) then head back. it is basically 'old' technology now; the avionics are good but it is not a true stealth airframe. still a very capable plane but outclassed by the most modern ones.
I like the idea's that the Russian airforce, and the US navy are taking.
That F35, whilst an advanced plane, doesnt have the same tech level then the F22. Its radar signature is to big. And for what it is, its SO very expensive.
The Mig is a 4.5, so by default no match for a true5th gen fighter, wich i'd only call the F22 atm. PAK and J20 arent in production and the F35 is also 4.5
And well, i assume we got total diffrent idea's about the advanced radar tech. US in my findings is mostly pouring cash into developping and improving stealth, and improved ECM to furhter screw the signalling, whilst the russians are mostly making better performing aircraft, tho not as stealthy, with better radars.
I back my views about the radars about the many documents thanks to pro US navy writers. Many readings to be found online about the future of detection, and most very sceptical with increasing computing power, that stealth will succumb to increasingly better radar, with russia notably beeing an expert in the field.
I think you are focussing on those anti air defences they sell. Same story like the Mig35 if you ask me. Its pretty good, but the top stuff they keep for themselves and china.
Like the US got the mighty F22, and try to force their poor mans F22 (the F35) to their allies.
And its a win win. F35 and mig35 shoot everything non russian/american owned out of the water, so its better then what the ally currently has, it funds the budget, and on the same time, they arent giving away THAT much
The F35 is advanced in some areas more than F-22, as it has IRST while F-22 doesn't among other things like EODAS and HOBS missiles. It's RCS will actually be second only to F-22. The front section and front quarters of F-35 are extremely stealthy but the rear and parts of the sides seem to be not quite up to the level of F-22 meaning it doesn't have super amazing allround stealth like F-22. This would most likely be to save costs.
Actually I'd say F-35 will be fairly cheap for what it offers. It is certainly not a 4.5gen plane and will be a very good 5th gen plane. By the time full export versions are being created it will be under $100million for full 5th gen multirole plane that can perform A2A, SEAD, CAS etc missions all very well. This is a plane that will replace F16, A10, F18 etc but not only will it 'replace' these planes but improve on performance in all areas all from one plane. a very impressive feat.
Russians tend to focus on kinematic performance and manouverability as they know they cannot beat US in electronics & avionics department. this is why you see so much thrust vectoring and 'supermanouverability' on russian planes and not on US planes besides experimental planes and F22. They tend to be bigger and have longer ranges also. don't forget about failures like arab-israeli wars of 1970s/1980s where soviet planes were completely raped by israeli us planes in dogfights. this would have weighed on their minds even if the israeli f-15s/f16s of the time were more advanced than the mig21/mig25 adversaries.
Pro US Navy writers don't write in favour of stealth because they've never had a stealth plane and you will see the opinions change once they see the capabilities of the F35. but the new 'stealth' will be speed, as in the first post of this thread you can read about sr-72 mach 6. this while not a fighter, will be coming into service (if it manages to get funding) probably around the same time or before chinese j-20 & j-31 are operational. us is already known to be looking into 6th gen fighters for a few years and who knows what they have under black programs still. i find it strange that there was never a faster airbreathing plane since sr-71 which is 1950s/60s tech basically so I would say US most likely has some kind of faster secret plane, or you can bet 100% that they looked into it since the 70s/80s but maybe it was too hard to make, who knows. you can see with things like x-51 that they basically just managed to get hypersonic flight after numerous failed attempts.
The sam russians have is s-400 which they only have in small numbers around moscow I think. next best is s-300 which is also export version.
Actually I'd say F-35 will be fairly cheap for what it offers. It is certainly not a 4.5gen plane and will be a very good 5th gen plane. By the time full export versions are being created it will be under $100million for full 5th gen multirole plane that can perform A2A, SEAD, CAS etc missions all very well. This is a plane that will replace F16, A10, F18 etc but not only will it 'replace' these planes but improve on performance in all areas all from one plane. a very impressive feat.
Russians tend to focus on kinematic performance and manouverability as they know they cannot beat US in electronics & avionics department. this is why you see so much thrust vectoring and 'supermanouverability' on russian planes and not on US planes besides experimental planes and F22. They tend to be bigger and have longer ranges also. don't forget about failures like arab-israeli wars of 1970s/1980s where soviet planes were completely raped by israeli us planes in dogfights. this would have weighed on their minds even if the israeli f-15s/f16s of the time were more advanced than the mig21/mig25 adversaries.
Pro US Navy writers don't write in favour of stealth because they've never had a stealth plane and you will see the opinions change once they see the capabilities of the F35. but the new 'stealth' will be speed, as in the first post of this thread you can read about sr-72 mach 6. this while not a fighter, will be coming into service (if it manages to get funding) probably around the same time or before chinese j-20 & j-31 are operational. us is already known to be looking into 6th gen fighters for a few years and who knows what they have under black programs still. i find it strange that there was never a faster airbreathing plane since sr-71 which is 1950s/60s tech basically so I would say US most likely has some kind of faster secret plane, or you can bet 100% that they looked into it since the 70s/80s but maybe it was too hard to make, who knows. you can see with things like x-51 that they basically just managed to get hypersonic flight after numerous failed attempts.
The sam russians have is s-400 which they only have in small numbers around moscow I think. next best is s-300 which is also export version.
Easy there tiger, remember what i said about comparing the equivalent fighter.
F15 and F14 do not have Mig21/25 as equivalent. They had the Mig29 and Su27 as equivalent.
Those planes never met in battle.
As i said before, it was allways the previous generation getting slaughtered by the newer generation.
And the Su27 and Mig29 were better. And this comes from a Huge F14 tomcat fanboy as i was/am.
Well, those pro navy writers go into significant detail, and considering the huge and advanced radar and tracking on their ships, they know their deal.
That s-300 is outdated giveaway stuff tbh. Its versatile and shoots down anything that isnt stealth or moving faster then mach4.8 in a flat line. Its pretty decent tho. especially when combined with that passive radar system from the iraq scandal.
TO bad , we could have seen if that thing actually picked up f117's.
s-400 is the real deal. Russia doesnt want to export despite various offers. Same manufactor that makes those top notch radars
Having said that, the sr-71 is the best looking plane in existence. Its sex on a ramjet, basically
F15 and F14 do not have Mig21/25 as equivalent. They had the Mig29 and Su27 as equivalent.
Those planes never met in battle.
As i said before, it was allways the previous generation getting slaughtered by the newer generation.
And the Su27 and Mig29 were better. And this comes from a Huge F14 tomcat fanboy as i was/am.
Well, those pro navy writers go into significant detail, and considering the huge and advanced radar and tracking on their ships, they know their deal.
That s-300 is outdated giveaway stuff tbh. Its versatile and shoots down anything that isnt stealth or moving faster then mach4.8 in a flat line. Its pretty decent tho. especially when combined with that passive radar system from the iraq scandal.
TO bad , we could have seen if that thing actually picked up f117's.
s-400 is the real deal. Russia doesnt want to export despite various offers. Same manufactor that makes those top notch radars
Having said that, the sr-71 is the best looking plane in existence. Its sex on a ramjet, basically
Easy there tiger, remember what i said about comparing the equivalent fighter.
F15 and F14 do not have Mig21/25 as equivalent. They had the Mig29 and Su27 as equivalent.
Those planes never met in battle.
As i said before, it was allways the previous generation getting slaughtered by the newer generation.
And the Su27 and Mig29 were better. And this comes from a Huge F14 tomcat fanboy as i was/am.
Well, those pro navy writers go into significant detail, and considering the huge and advanced radar and tracking on their ships, they know their deal.
That s-300 is outdated giveaway stuff tbh. Its versatile and shoots down anything that isnt stealth or moving faster then mach4.8 in a flat line. Its pretty decent tho. especially when combined with that passive radar system from the iraq scandal.
TO bad , we could have seen if that thing actually picked up f117's.
s-400 is the real deal. Russia doesnt want to export despite various offers. Same manufactor that makes those top notch radars
Having said that, the sr-71 is the best looking plane in existence. Its sex on a ramjet, basically
F15 and F14 do not have Mig21/25 as equivalent. They had the Mig29 and Su27 as equivalent.
Those planes never met in battle.
As i said before, it was allways the previous generation getting slaughtered by the newer generation.
And the Su27 and Mig29 were better. And this comes from a Huge F14 tomcat fanboy as i was/am.
Well, those pro navy writers go into significant detail, and considering the huge and advanced radar and tracking on their ships, they know their deal.
That s-300 is outdated giveaway stuff tbh. Its versatile and shoots down anything that isnt stealth or moving faster then mach4.8 in a flat line. Its pretty decent tho. especially when combined with that passive radar system from the iraq scandal.
TO bad , we could have seen if that thing actually picked up f117's.
s-400 is the real deal. Russia doesnt want to export despite various offers. Same manufactor that makes those top notch radars
Having said that, the sr-71 is the best looking plane in existence. Its sex on a ramjet, basically
there is always an agenda regarding these things preferring funding for one thing over an another
sr-71
it's defense system was to accelerate. russians fired hundreds or thousands of missiles at it and they never shot one down
it's been flying for at least a couple of years already.
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/41df448d1700
that article is quite good
I remember reading an article about that quote not too long ago on that website, maybe 6-12 months about how they basically knew they had a new stealth drone, and now it is confirmed.
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/41df448d1700
that article is quite good
I remember reading an article about that quote not too long ago on that website, maybe 6-12 months about how they basically knew they had a new stealth drone, and now it is confirmed.
