Abortion, good or bad? (6 Viewers)

OP
Chxta

Chxta

Onye kwe, Chi ya ekwe
Nov 1, 2004
12,088
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  • Thread Starter #241
    ++ [ originally posted by chxta ] ++


    I am against abortion!
    This is what this thread is all about, not this...

    ++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++


    Never said I was an angel, but I did say you were a hypocrite, and I still stand behind my statement. I can't believe you have the nerve to say people should suffer the consequences of their actions when you did not do the same! If that is not hypocritical I don't know what is!!!




    First of all, I don't see what's wrong with being a womanizer? Is it a crime? Does it in any way affect his ability to carry out his functions? About being drunk, yes, if it was NOT a thing of the past. But then again, it is not a crime to drink, as it is to kill a man, especially because of immaturity and stupidity. I believe that men should get to start over and turn a new leaf in their life, but only when they have paid their dues to society for the crimes they have done, where the punishement would fit the crime. And about Adolf Hitler, I would have not voted for him regardless of his clean record, because as a liberal I don't support the policies of nationalism.

    As for you, it is people like you that would force women to give birth to babies they don't want or can't raise properly, that would forbid homosexuals from having any kinds of human and legal rights, including the right to marry, that would discriminate against women, and that would keep the africanamercans at the back of the bus (if you had been white naturally).

    However, it's liberals like me that abolished the slavery, that fought for africanamerican's human rights, fought against discrimination and racism, it's people like me that gave women the right to vote, to work and be equal to man, it's people like me that fought to get religion seperated from the state and allow everyone to believe what they want and how they want, it is people like me that allowed homosexuals to form unions recognized by law and be given the uman rights they deserve and not be discriminated against them. So next time you talk about "people like me", take your head out of your ass and thing about "people like you".




    Yes, but did the man you killed have the chance to move on? How exactly did you pay your dues? Did you spend 10-15 years in jail as you should have as a consequence, which is obviously one of your favourite words, of what you did? or did you get your daddy to bail you out and avoid the very same consequence you like to mention so often? How exactly did you pay your due to society? How?




    Yes, hell, let's frighten people with that again. Be Christians or you'll burn in hell!!! Don't have sex, or you'll burn in hell!!! Don't have an abortion or you'll burn in hell!!! Fucks sake, enough with hell already. If God was so powerful you'd think he would have a better means to convince people.

    How does your description differ from you killing a man for a few moments of actink like a dick in front of girls in your dad's car?

    And yes, the oh-so-liberal Zlatan would allow the woman to have the second abortion, and the third one, and the fourth, and the ninth, and the 121st if she wants to, because it is her thats pregnant, not me and certanly not you.

    Now go back and look what your wives keylogger picked up.


    The very last sentence was low, even for you. And yes, you want me in jail, unfortunately, I ain't going. I've had enough of this shit. Game over. Say what else you want.
     

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    OP
    Chxta

    Chxta

    Onye kwe, Chi ya ekwe
    Nov 1, 2004
    12,088
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #242
    ++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++


    :thumb:

    excellent, we need to keep good debates like this going - makes very interesting reading.

    For the record i completely agree with just about everything that Acies has said on this matter, there's not much more to add. There is no way abortion should be made illegal, yes after x months, whenever the experts decide, but to completely make it illegal is completely wrong imo.

    Another point i read somewhere the comment "I bet your an atheist aren't you.." - this was said in a derogatory manner as if people who don't believe in a set religion are inferior, this pompous and utterly ridiculous train of thought is why most debates end up in slanging matches. Cut it out, please!
    @ Acies, I am sorry if I attacked your beliefs or principles. Hope no offense taken.
     

    gray

    Senior Member
    Moderator
    Apr 22, 2003
    30,260
    ++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
    Another point i read somewhere the comment "I bet your an atheist aren't you.." - this was said in a derogatory manner as if people who don't believe in a set religion are inferior, this pompous and utterly ridiculous train of thought is why most debates end up in slanging matches. Cut it out, please!
    i don't disagree with you Tom, but it's funny that you're backing up Acies of all people regarding discriminatory comments :) You'll see why if you read back on some of his/her posts in this thread.
     

    Acies

    Junior Member
    Jun 23, 2005
    120
    ++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

    i don't disagree with you Tom, but it's funny that you're backing up Acies of all people regarding discriminatory comments :) You'll see why if you read back on some of his/her posts in this thread.
    My posts weren't degrading towards your beliefs. They were degrading towards the catholic indoctrination. It's just that the things you stated and the way you stated them, that I hear them every week by some religion fanatic.
     

    Zlatan

    Senior Member
    Jun 9, 2003
    23,049
    ++ [ originally posted by chxta ] ++


    This is what this thread is all about, not this...





    The very last sentence was low, even for you. And yes, you want me in jail, unfortunately, I ain't going. I've had enough of this shit. Game over. Say what else you want.

    Why would I want you in jail, it doesn't affect me in any way, nor do I care if you go to jail or not. The whole reason I brought it up is because you opened the door with your talk about consequences. I don't hide the fact that I don't like you, but I really do not care whether you go to jail or not. However, it was relevant to the discussion as you were acting morally superior.

    The bolded part is completely true. Not only did you mention "atheist" in a derogatory manner, you did the same with "liberal". I just reminded you what liberals did, compared to "conservatives"

    And I dont think that last sentence was low. If anything, the only thing that's low was the fact that you installed or wanted to install a keylogger to your fiancees computer.
     

    gray

    Senior Member
    Moderator
    Apr 22, 2003
    30,260
    ++ [ originally posted by Acies ] ++
    My posts weren't degrading towards your beliefs. They were degrading towards the catholic indoctrination. It's just that the things you stated and the way you stated them, that I hear them every week by some religion fanatic.
    Okay, maybe I took them the wrong way then. My apologies

    btw I don't think I got a chance to welcome you to the forums... so welcome, and sorry if we got off on the wrong foot ;)
     
    OP
    Chxta

    Chxta

    Onye kwe, Chi ya ekwe
    Nov 1, 2004
    12,088
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #248
    Nice welcome gray...

    BTW, how do I go about getting a change so that my username starts with an upper case?
     

    Acies

    Junior Member
    Jun 23, 2005
    120
    ++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

    Okay, maybe I took them the wrong way then. My apologies

    btw I don't think I got a chance to welcome you to the forums... so welcome, and sorry if we got off on the wrong foot ;)
    It's ok. I guess I chose my words badly. It certainly wasn't meant to be degrading towards you.
     
    OP
    Chxta

    Chxta

    Onye kwe, Chi ya ekwe
    Nov 1, 2004
    12,088
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  • Thread Starter #252
    You say I avoid issues Acies, I apologised to you for something and you totally ignore me? :wth:
     
    OP
    Chxta

    Chxta

    Onye kwe, Chi ya ekwe
    Nov 1, 2004
    12,088
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  • Thread Starter #253
    Some may find this essay too long, I'll probably provide a summary if I remember when I return from my lunch break...

    Biblical Arguments Against Abortion
    In this essay we will be discussing arguments against abortion. The first set of arguments we will consider are biblical arguments.

    That being said, we must begin by acknowledging that the Bible doesn't say anything about abortion directly. Why the silence of the Bible on abortion? The answer is simple. Abortion was so unthinkable to an Israelite woman that there was no need to even mention it in the criminal code. Why was abortion an unthinkable act? First, children were viewed as a gift or heritage from the Lord. Second, the Scriptures state--and the Jews concurred--that God opens and closes the womb and is sovereign over conception. Third, childlessness was seen as a curse.

    One of the key verses to understand in developing a biblical view of the sanctity of human life is Psalm 139. This psalm is the inspired record of David's praise for God's sovereignty in his life. He begins by acknowledging that God is omniscient and knows what David is doing at any given point in time. He goes on to acknowledge that God is aware of David's thoughts before he expresses them. David adds that wherever he might go, he cannot escape from God, whether he travels to heaven or ventures into Sheol. God is in the remotest part of the sea and even in the darkness. Finally David contemplates the origin of his life and confesses that God was there forming him in the womb.

    For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be (vv. 13-16).

    Here David speaks of God's relationship with him while he was growing and developing before birth. Notice that the Bible doesn't speak of fetal life as mere biochemistry. The description here is not of a piece of protoplasm that becomes David: this is David already being cared for by God while in the womb.

    In verse 13, we see that God is the Master Craftsman fashioning David into a living person. In verses 14 and 15, David reflects on the fact that he is a product of God's creative work within his mother's womb, and he praises God for how wonderfully God has woven him together.

    David draws a parallel between his development in the womb and Adam's creation from the earth. Using figurative language in verse 15, he refers to his life before birth when "I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth." This poetic allusion harkens back to Genesis 2:7 which says that Adam was made from the dust of the earth.

    David also notes that "Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance." This shows that God knew David even before he was known to others. The term translated unformed substance is a noun derivative of a verb meaning "to roll up." When David was just forming as a fetus, God's care and compassion already extended to him. The reference to "God's eyes" is an Old Testament term used to connotate divine oversight of God in the life of an individual or group of people.

    Next, we will consider additional Old Testament passages that provide a biblical argument against abortion.
    Additional Old Testament Arguments Against Abortion
    Now that we've looked at Psalm 139, the most popular argument against abortion, let's look at two other Old Testament passages.

    Another significant passage is Psalm 51. It was written by David after his sin of adultery with Bathsheba and records his repentance. David confesses that his sinful act demonstrated the original sin that was within him, "Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 5l:5). David concludes that from his time of conception, he had a sin nature. This would imply that he carried the image of God from the moment of conception, including the marred image scarred from sin.

    Human beings are created in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 9:6). Bearing the image of God is the essence of humanness. And though God's image in man was marred at the Fall, it was not erased (cf. 1 Cor. 11:7; James 3:9). Thus, the unborn baby is made in the image of God and therefore fully human in God's sight.

    This verse also provides support for what is called the traducian view of the origin of the soul. According to this perspective, human beings were potentially in Adam (Rom. 5:12, Heb. 7:9-10) and thus participated in his original sin. The "soulish" part of humans is transferred through conception. Therefore, an unborn baby is morally accountable and thus fully human.

    Another argument against abortion can be found in the Old Testament legal code, specifically Exodus 21:22-25.

    If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    The verses appear to teach that if a woman gives birth prematurely, but the baby is not injured, then only a fine is appropriate. However, if the child dies then the law of retaliation (lex talionis) should be applied. In other words, killing an unborn baby would carry the same penalty as killing a born baby. A baby inside the womb has the same legal status as a baby outside the womb.

    Some commentators have come to a different conclusion because they believe the first verses only refer to a case of accidental miscarriage. Since only a fine is levied, they argue that an unborn baby is merely potential life and does not carry the same legal status as a baby that has been born.

    There are at least two problems with this interpretation. First, the normal Hebrew word for miscarry is not used in this passage (cf. Gen. 31:38; Exod. 23:26; Job 2:10; Hos. 9:14). Most commentators now believe that the action described in verse 22 is a premature birth not an accidental miscarriage. Second, even if the verses do describe a miscarriage, the passage cannot be used to justify abortion. The injury was accidental, not intentional (as abortion would be). Also, the action was a criminal offense and punishable by law.

    Medical Arguments Against Abortion
    Thus far in our discussion we have looked at biblical arguments against abortion. But what if someone doesn't believe in the Bible? Are there other arguments we can use? Yes, there are: medical arguments, for example. Let's look, then, at some of the medical arguments against abortion.

    The medical arguments against abortion are compelling. For example, at conception the embryo is genetically distinct from the mother. To say that the developing baby is no different from the mother's appendix is scientifically inaccurate. A developing embryo is genetically different from the mother. A developing embryo is also genetically different from the sperm and egg that created it. A human being has 46 chromosomes (sometimes 47 chromosomes). Sperm and egg have 23 chromosomes. A trained geneticist can distinguish between the DNA of an embryo and that of a sperm and egg. But that same geneticist could not distinguish between the DNA of a developing embryo and a full-grown human being.

    Another set of medical arguments against abortion surround the definition of life and death. If one set of criteria have been used to define death, could they also be used to define life? Death used to be defined by the cessation of heartbeat. A stopped heart was a clear sign of death. If the cessation of heartbeat could define death, could the onset of a heartbeat define life? The heart is formed by the 18th day in the womb. If heartbeat was used to define life, then nearly all abortions would be outlawed.

    Physicians now use a more rigorous criterion for death: brain wave activity. A flat EEG (electroencephalograph) is one of the most important criteria used to determine death. If the cessation of brain wave activity can define death, could the onset of brain wave activity define life? Individual brain waves are detected in the fetus in about 40-43 days. Using brain wave activity to define life would outlaw at least a majority of abortions.

    Opponents to abortion also raise the controversial issue of fetal pain. Does the fetus feel pain during abortion? The evidence seems fairly clear and consistent. Consider this statement made in a British medical journal: "Try sticking an infant with a pin and you know what happens. She opens her mouth to cry and also pulls away. Try sticking an 8-week-old human fetus in the palm of his hand. He opens his mouth and pulls his hand away. A more technical description would add that changes in heart rate and fetal movement also suggest that intrauterine manipulations are painful to the fetus."

    Obviously, other medical criteria could be used. For example, the developing fetus has a unique set of fingerprints as well as genetic patterns that make it unique. The development of sonography has provided us with a "window to the womb" showing us that a person is growing and developing in the mother's womb. We can discern eyes, ears, fingers, a nose, and a mouth. Our visual senses tell us this is a baby growing and maturing. This is not a piece of protoplasm; this is a baby inside the womb.

    The point is simple. Medical science leads to a pro-life perspective rather than a pro-choice perspective. If medical science can be used at all to draw a line, the clearest line is at the moment of conception. Medical arguments provide a strong case against abortion and for life.

    Legal Arguments Against Abortion
    At this point in our discussion, we need to look at legal arguments against abortion.

    The best legal argument against abortion can be seen in the case of Roe v. Wade. It violated standard legal reasoning. The Supreme Court decided not to decide when life begins and then turned around and overturned the laws of 50 different states.

    Most of the Supreme Court's verdict rested upon two sentences. "We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to an answer."

    Although the sentences sounded both innocuous and unpretentious, they were neither. The Supreme Court's non-decision was not innocuous. It overturned state laws that protected the unborn and has resulted in over 30 million abortions (roughly the population of Canada) in the United States.

    The decision also seems unpretentious by acknowledging that it did not know when life begins. But if the Court did not know, then it should have acted "as if" life was in the womb. A crucial role of government is to protect life. Government cannot remove a segment of the human population from its protection without adequate justification.

    The burden of proof should lie with the life-taker, and the benefit of the doubt should be with the life-saver. Put another way: "when in doubt, don't." A hunter who hears rustling in the bushes shouldn't fire until he knows what is in the bushes. Likewise, a Court which doesn't know when life begins, should not declare open season on the unborn.

    The burden of proof in law is on the prosecution. The benefit of doubt is with the defense. This is also known as a presumption of innocence. The defendant is assumed to be innocent unless proven guilty. Again the burden of proof is on the entity that would take away life or liberty. The benefit of the doubt lies with the defense.

    The Supreme Court clearly stated that it does not know when life begins and then violated the very spirit of this legal principle by acting as if it just proved that no life existed in the womb. Even more curious was the fact that to do so, it had to ignore the religious community and international community on the subject of the unborn.

    Had the religious community really failed to reach a consensus? Although there were some intramural disagreements, certainly the weight of evidence indicated that a Western culture founded on Judeo-Christian values held abortion to be morally wrong. People with widely divergent theological perspectives (Jewish, Catholic, evangelical and fundamental Protestants) shared a common agreement about the humanity of the unborn.

    The same could be said about the international legal community. Physicians around the world subscribed to the Hippocratic Oath ("I will not give a woman a pessary to produce abortion"). The unborn were protected by various international documents like the Declaration of Geneva and the U.N. Declaration of the Rights of the Child.

    Just as there are solid medical arguments against abortion, so also there are legal arguments against abortion. Roe vs. Wade was a bad decision that needs to be overturned.

    Philosophical Arguments Against Abortion
    Finally, we will conclude our discussion by looking at philosophical arguments against abortion.

    A third set of arguments against abortion would be philosophical arguments. A key philosophical question is where do you draw the line? Put another way, when does a human being become a person?

    The Supreme Court's decision of Roe v. Wade separated personhood from humanity. In other words, the judges argued that a developing fetus was a human (i.e., a member of the species Homo sapiens) but not a person. Since only persons are given 14th Amendment protection under the Constitution, the Court argued that abortion could be legal at certain times. This left to doctors, parents, or even other judges the responsibility of arbitrarily deciding when personhood should be awarded to human beings.

    The Supreme Court's cleavage of personhood and humanity made the ethical slide down society's slippery slope inevitable. Once the Court allowed people to start drawing lines, some drew them in unexpected ways and effectively opened the door for infanticide and euthanasia.

    The Court, in the tradition of previous line-drawers, opted for biological criteria in their definition of a "person" in Roe v. Wade. In the past, such criteria as implantation or quickening had been suggested. The Court chose the idea of viability and allowed for the possibility that states could outlaw abortions performed after a child was viable. But viability was an arbitrary criterion, and there was no biological reason why the line had to be drawn near the early stages of development. The line, for example, could be drawn much later.

    Ethicist Paul Ramsey frequently warned that any argument for abortion could logically be also used as an argument for infanticide. As if to illustrate this, Dr. Francis Crick, of DNA fame, demonstrated that he was less concerned about the ethics of such logical extensions and proposed a more radical definition of personhood. He suggested in the British journal Nature that if "a child were considered to be legally born when two days old, it could be examined to see whether it was an 'acceptable member of human society.'" Obviously this is not only an argument for abortion; it's an argument for infanticide.

    Other line-drawers have suggested a cultural criterion for personhood. Ashley Montagu, for example, stated, "A newborn baby is not truly human until he or she is molded by cultural influences later." Again, this is more than just an argument for abortion. It is also an argument for infanticide.

    More recently some line-drawers have focused on a mental criterion for personhood. Dr. Joseph Fletcher argues in his book Humanhood that "Humans without some minimum of intelligence or mental capacity are not persons, no matter how many of these organs are active, no matter how spontaneous their living processes are." This is not only an argument for abortion and infanticide; it's adequate justification for euthanasia and the potential elimination of those who do not possess a certain IQ. In other writings, Joseph Fletcher suggested that an "individual" was not truly a "person" unless he has an IQ of at least 40.

    In conclusion, we can see that there are many good arguments against abortion. Obviously there are a number of biblical arguments against abortion. But there are also medical, legal, and philosophical arguments against abortion. The Bible and logic are on the side of the Christian who wants to stand for the sanctity of human life.
     

    - vOnAm -

    Senior Member
    Jul 22, 2004
    3,779
    I am against abortion too, but not completely make it illegal. I think as long as it is before the first trimester there can be arguments for abortion, but after the first trimester there should not be an abortion no matter what the reason is.

    Btw, so how are all of you thinking about stem cell research then?
     

    Tom

    The DJ
    Oct 30, 2001
    11,726
    chxta 1/4 of your argument can be easily dismissed. Religion should have no influence on such an important topic. For the individual, yes, but for a country to even take into account religious beliefs upon making the decision would be laughable.
     

    - vOnAm -

    Senior Member
    Jul 22, 2004
    3,779
    Stem Cell research : A research for producing cells from embryonic or adult stem cells.
    Basically the real issue is in embryonic stem cell, where the cells are actually taken from very early fertilized eggs (human embrio), these cells can then be manipulated to create and produce other types of cells from blood, liver, skin, muscle cells (pretty much all the cells in a human body). But after the stem cell is extracted from an embryo then the embryo dies.

    So basically its like early abortion except its used for research to someday help reproduce all the cells in the human body.
     

    Nicole

    Senior Member
    Sep 16, 2004
    7,561
    Put it this way, if it isnt legalised, then alot of teenage girls will put themselves at great risk doing it illegally, it wont stop them getting an abortion, if just makes it far more safe.
     

    gray

    Senior Member
    Moderator
    Apr 22, 2003
    30,260
    ++ [ originally posted by Nicole ] ++
    Put it this way, if it isnt legalised, then alot of teenage girls will put themselves at great risk doing it illegally, it wont stop them getting an abortion, if just makes it far more safe.
    AFAIK, DIY abortion jobs (if you'll excuse the acronyms) aren't a major factor in the abortion debate. Do you have a source regarding the prevalence of teenagers aborting their own children because they didn't otherwise have access to the 'service'?

    There's a big difference between clean syringe distribution to prevent the spread of disease, and discouraging women from inserting forceps into their wombs :)
     

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