[SCO] Scottish Premier league 2012/2013 (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Azzurri7
- Start date
And I'll probably have less to say than normal, since I don't plan to renew my season ticket.
Things have been so unrelentingly grim under Brown that I don't want to spend another year watching it.
I'll return shortly after he departs (around Xmas, I would guess), though.
Only interesting thing in Scottish football at the moment is the situation with Rangers.
Things have been so unrelentingly grim under Brown that I don't want to spend another year watching it.
I'll return shortly after he departs (around Xmas, I would guess), though.
Only interesting thing in Scottish football at the moment is the situation with Rangers.
Red, what's your view on a Newco Rangers being let straight into the SPL next year, with some kind of recurring points penalty for a few years?
To me, it's an absolutely disgraceful idea. It's basically saying 'Rangers are immune to relegation'. If they finished bottom on points what would happen then? Juventus and River Plate have both been relegated in recent years, and nobody tried to stop it from happening on the basis that the league 'needs' them.
Mabye for a couple of seasons Celtic will run away with things, but I honestly think that people in Scotland love football enough to go and see their local Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Hearts etc when Rangers aren't around anymore. And that's also not even taking into account that Aberdeen, Dundee United and Hibs are all big teams. They've not got the best squads these days but they're big teams with proud traditions. I'd love to see them rise up again and then we could have a 'Big 4' in Scotland.
In any case, Rangers should be expelled from the SPL anyway, and everything they've won in the last 20 years should be stripped from them. The record books should say for example 'SPL 2010-2011: Rangers (Revoked for financial fraud). Not that a Newco Rangers would have won anything, anyway.
To me, it's an absolutely disgraceful idea. It's basically saying 'Rangers are immune to relegation'. If they finished bottom on points what would happen then? Juventus and River Plate have both been relegated in recent years, and nobody tried to stop it from happening on the basis that the league 'needs' them.
Mabye for a couple of seasons Celtic will run away with things, but I honestly think that people in Scotland love football enough to go and see their local Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Hearts etc when Rangers aren't around anymore. And that's also not even taking into account that Aberdeen, Dundee United and Hibs are all big teams. They've not got the best squads these days but they're big teams with proud traditions. I'd love to see them rise up again and then we could have a 'Big 4' in Scotland.
In any case, Rangers should be expelled from the SPL anyway, and everything they've won in the last 20 years should be stripped from them. The record books should say for example 'SPL 2010-2011: Rangers (Revoked for financial fraud). Not that a Newco Rangers would have won anything, anyway.
I really hope Rangers die.
Rangers should be kicked out of the SPL for all the reasons we all know about.
However, I am a pragmatist.
If someone was to put forward some sort of plan for Rangers getting into the SPL which involved:
1. An apology and an acceptance of responsibility for all wrongdoings;
2. A transfer embargo for a year;
3. A review of the voting system to make it 8-4 instead of 11-1, so that the Old Firm could no longer control the league;
4. A significant proportion of Rangers' income from the SPL for a number of years being shared around the rest of the league by way of some sort of compensation and to pay all football creditors in full; and
5. A revocation of all trophies Rangers are found to have won by cheating
I'd listen to it.
Not saying I'd agree to it, but I'd consider it.
If Rangers get straight back into the SPL (without a package such as I have outlined) it will be the end of Scottish football.
Thousands of Aberdeen fans will stop going and I can only imagine it would be much the same at Hearts, Hibs and Utd.
Rangers should be kicked out of the SPL for all the reasons we all know about.
However, I am a pragmatist.
If someone was to put forward some sort of plan for Rangers getting into the SPL which involved:
1. An apology and an acceptance of responsibility for all wrongdoings;
2. A transfer embargo for a year;
3. A review of the voting system to make it 8-4 instead of 11-1, so that the Old Firm could no longer control the league;
4. A significant proportion of Rangers' income from the SPL for a number of years being shared around the rest of the league by way of some sort of compensation and to pay all football creditors in full; and
5. A revocation of all trophies Rangers are found to have won by cheating
I'd listen to it.
Not saying I'd agree to it, but I'd consider it.
If Rangers get straight back into the SPL (without a package such as I have outlined) it will be the end of Scottish football.
Thousands of Aberdeen fans will stop going and I can only imagine it would be much the same at Hearts, Hibs and Utd.
http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/will-the-spl-survive-without-rangers-1-2335890
“If you look after the sport the money will follow you, if you look after the money you’ll kill the sport.”
- John McBeth (former president of the SFA)
Rangers must be punished further or there will be absolutely no reason for teams like Aberdeen and Hearts to go along working with significant debts. They should just endure a tough few months, pay creditors 5p in the pound and then be in a stronger situation.
That would be completely unreasonable.
Don't forget that they have been cheating the rest of the league by living beyind their means for years, so this is a sporting issue, too. Not being allowed to sign players for one year doesn't seem an unreasonable sporting punishment for them having cheated for a decade or more.
And that isn't even touching on the dual contracts thing.
What if Hearts were in a perilous financial situation and absolutely could not do without recieving the full transfer fee they agreed with Rangers for Lee Wallace and Rangers decided only to offer them 5p in the pound for it?
That could see Hearts go bust.
That sitution could be repeated if Hearts had bought someone from a First Division side.
The football creditors rule in England is to stop the house of cards collapsing.
That Rangers are banking on an installment of the Jelavic transfer from Everton to keep the club running, while they are offering Rapid Vienna pence in the pound on the remainder of what Rangers are due them is a complete joke.
Fuck that.
If what you suggest happens, Rangers will have one non-competitive season at the very most and then the everything will return to the way it has been for the last fifteen years.
“If you look after the sport the money will follow you, if you look after the money you’ll kill the sport.”
- John McBeth (former president of the SFA)
Rangers must be punished further or there will be absolutely no reason for teams like Aberdeen and Hearts to go along working with significant debts. They should just endure a tough few months, pay creditors 5p in the pound and then be in a stronger situation.
That would be completely unreasonable.
Don't forget that they have been cheating the rest of the league by living beyind their means for years, so this is a sporting issue, too. Not being allowed to sign players for one year doesn't seem an unreasonable sporting punishment for them having cheated for a decade or more.
And that isn't even touching on the dual contracts thing.
What if Hearts were in a perilous financial situation and absolutely could not do without recieving the full transfer fee they agreed with Rangers for Lee Wallace and Rangers decided only to offer them 5p in the pound for it?
That could see Hearts go bust.
That sitution could be repeated if Hearts had bought someone from a First Division side.
The football creditors rule in England is to stop the house of cards collapsing.
That Rangers are banking on an installment of the Jelavic transfer from Everton to keep the club running, while they are offering Rapid Vienna pence in the pound on the remainder of what Rangers are due them is a complete joke.
Fuck that.
If what you suggest happens, Rangers will have one non-competitive season at the very most and then the everything will return to the way it has been for the last fifteen years.
Looking at the dual contracts thing, Rangers must also be punished for that, too.
If it is proven that they have effectively been playing ineligible players for the last ten years (maybe more) it would be preposterous for there not to be any sanctions.
If a team feilds an ineligible player in the Scottish Cup (as happens every other year) they are kicked out of the competition with history showing a 3-0 loss for that game.
That means that all games Rangers have played ineligible players in should go down as 3-0 losses.
Titles and trophies should, therefore, be taken off them (I wouldn't reassign them and have an Inter situation, though).
And with Rangers seemingly having played ineligible players last season, they should be deemed to have lost all those games 3-0, got no points all season (-10 with admin penalty) and certainly should not be playing in the SPL next season.
If it is proven that they have effectively been playing ineligible players for the last ten years (maybe more) it would be preposterous for there not to be any sanctions.
If a team feilds an ineligible player in the Scottish Cup (as happens every other year) they are kicked out of the competition with history showing a 3-0 loss for that game.
That means that all games Rangers have played ineligible players in should go down as 3-0 losses.
Titles and trophies should, therefore, be taken off them (I wouldn't reassign them and have an Inter situation, though).
And with Rangers seemingly having played ineligible players last season, they should be deemed to have lost all those games 3-0, got no points all season (-10 with admin penalty) and certainly should not be playing in the SPL next season.
And the arrogance of the huns is truly breathtaking through all this.
How the fuck they can be talking about transfer targets in public when they haven't settled their debts, it is unclear what league they'll be in next season and it is still far from certain that Rangers will still exist in any recognisable form a month from now, is beyond me.
How the fuck they can be talking about transfer targets in public when they haven't settled their debts, it is unclear what league they'll be in next season and it is still far from certain that Rangers will still exist in any recognisable form a month from now, is beyond me.
A month ago I would have been resigned to them getting back in with minimal sanctions.
I think the huns pissed off a lot of people when they went to court over the transfer embargo, though, so I think a vote would be quite close.
However, unless the liquidation process goes extremely quickly and smoothly, there has to be every chance a newco wouldn't be ready in time for the coming season.
I think the huns pissed off a lot of people when they went to court over the transfer embargo, though, so I think a vote would be quite close.
However, unless the liquidation process goes extremely quickly and smoothly, there has to be every chance a newco wouldn't be ready in time for the coming season.
The Scotsman's view on how voting might go:
ABERDEEN
The Pittodrie support, through their Trust, have been among the most vociferous opponents of a Rangers newco that would betray a “rigged system” in which there were clubs “too big too fail” and cause them to desert their club en masse. Their chairman, Stewart Milne, wants all this to go away. His club are £12m in debt, he is financing a £38m new stadium and would only say last month: “We will do what we believe is in the best interests of Aberdeen Football Club and Scottish football.”
How they might vote: Milne may be backed in to the 'no’ corner by a support he cannot afford to lose.
CELTIC
They have deliberately said little beyond chief executive Peter Lawwell’s catch-all: “Our guiding principle is to do what is in the best interests of Celtic and our supporters, while upholding the interests and reputation of Scottish football.” The club that stands to lose most financially if there is no Rangers in the SPL, in any ideal world they wouldn’t want that but there would be a mass revolt among their support if they didn’t serve sporting integrity in the expected fashion.
How they might vote: A stick-on 'no to newco’ because any other response would be commercial suicide.
DUNDEE UNITED
Owner Stephen Thompson has admitted to attitudes hardening over Rangers after they went to the civil courts. His mind seems to be being made up by a Tannadice faithful who are letting him know they will turn their back on the club if he favours a Rangers newco. “I was told that, at Motherwell at the end of last season, every turnstile had a poster above it saying 'no to newco’. It was the same at Aberdeen. Fans are feeling very strongly about it. I have been sent hundreds of letters and emails on the subject. Some of them are from people who have been season-ticket holders for 30 years. I have made my mind up, which I won’t go public on. You have to listen to the fans as well but you have a responsibility to the club as well. That doesn’t necessarily mean I want them in. Don’t read too much in that.”
How they might vote: A probable 'no’ but might be swayed with heavy sanctions for a newco Rangers.
HEARTS
On the line for around £600,000 in lost revenue if the TV deal takes a heavy hit with no Rangers in the SPL, money – including the £800,000 Rangers owe them for Lee Wallace – will dictate their attitude. Hence director Sergejus Fedotovas’ take: “Justice is very important but lessons learned are more valuable. Scottish football should not put all focus on the punishment.”
How they might vote: Certain to back a Rangers return.
HIBERNIAN
No-one has been more unequivocal about their rejection of a fiscal imperative to accept Rangers as a newco than Hibernian chairman Rod Petrie. “Fundamental to us at our club is to make sure the integrity of the game is not called into question and that the sporting integrity of the competition we take part in is maintained at the highest standards. It’s not a question of any sum of money in return for that integrity – integrity is beyond purchase. It’s important that all clubs can have a place within football, provided they have earned it in a sporting sense and also have abided by the rules. If we are called upon to make any decisions we will try to do the right thing and uphold the integrity of the competition that we are engaged in.”
How they might vote: A Rangers refusnik.
INVERNESS CT
Reacted angrily to Rangers’ Court of Session challenge to the SFA but won’t want any uncertainties over revenues when finances tight. Chairman Kenny Cameron said: “There is much still to discuss – but I hope this will bring certainty and closure to this issue. We just need to move on from this situation.”
How they might vote: Will want a Rangers in the SPL.
KILMARNOCK
There is no guesswork required to determine the intentions of club chairman Michael Johnston. “Members see the commercial benefits of having Rangers, even as a newco,” he said last month. “The clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect, but the commercial benefits may outweigh that.”
How they might vote: Another certainty to accept any Rangers. Johnston has also cautioned against any further punishments for the club that plays out of Ibrox.
MOTHERWELL
Another club whose minds might be made up by their masses, the club’s proposed fan ownership model is dependent on listening to them. As they admitted in mealy-mouth fashion. “We do not believe we can separate the sporting integrity of our league from the sustainable future of our club – the two go hand-in-hand. Any decisions we take as a board are made in the best interests of the club with a view to achieving our stated aims for ownership and funding. [A newco proposal we would] fully discuss with representatives of our supporters’ groups, prior to making any decision.”
How they might vote: The rank and file seem to be pushing them reluctantly towards the 'no’ camp.
ROSS COUNTY
The newest member of the 11, they are not financially dependent on the SPL, in whatever form it takes. Their chairman Roy MacGregor’s stance reflects that. “I will listen to the arguments. I will not prejudge. We are taking a calculated risk on our budget for next season and it was done before this situation. It will make no difference,” he said.
How they might vote: For their first season among the elite they could feel cheated if there was no Rangers. File under “don’t know”.
ST JOHNSTONE
Contradictory noises have come from chairman Steven Brown. Has said his club don’t need Rangers but that it would be a “disaster” if the brand was lost to the SPL. Then last week he stated: “I certainly will not let Rangers in without sanctions. The feeling from the people I’ve spoken to is they won’t let Rangers in with a 'get out free card’.”
How they might vote: Will vote Rangers in with the right penalty tariff.
ST MIRREN
Another of the swaying brigade, chairman Stewart Gilmour has previously stated Scottish football needs “a strong Rangers and a strong Celtic” but lacerated the Ibrox club for their legal recourse beyond the game. St Mirren’s position will be determined by whether any newco vote is held before 4 July, when ownership of the club is set to transfer to a supporters’ group.
How they might vote: If the current board are still in place Rangers will be supported, if the fans group have taken over perhaps not.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footb...s-might-vote-on-newco-in-top-flight-1-2351524
Not sure I agree with them or what exactly they are basing this on, but that would put the count at 5-5, with Ross County an unknown and it being unclear whether New Rangers would get a vote.
Anyway, Aberdeen, Celtic, Hibs, Utd and Motherwell voting against the hun would be enough to block the admission of the newco.
ABERDEEN
The Pittodrie support, through their Trust, have been among the most vociferous opponents of a Rangers newco that would betray a “rigged system” in which there were clubs “too big too fail” and cause them to desert their club en masse. Their chairman, Stewart Milne, wants all this to go away. His club are £12m in debt, he is financing a £38m new stadium and would only say last month: “We will do what we believe is in the best interests of Aberdeen Football Club and Scottish football.”
How they might vote: Milne may be backed in to the 'no’ corner by a support he cannot afford to lose.
CELTIC
They have deliberately said little beyond chief executive Peter Lawwell’s catch-all: “Our guiding principle is to do what is in the best interests of Celtic and our supporters, while upholding the interests and reputation of Scottish football.” The club that stands to lose most financially if there is no Rangers in the SPL, in any ideal world they wouldn’t want that but there would be a mass revolt among their support if they didn’t serve sporting integrity in the expected fashion.
How they might vote: A stick-on 'no to newco’ because any other response would be commercial suicide.
DUNDEE UNITED
Owner Stephen Thompson has admitted to attitudes hardening over Rangers after they went to the civil courts. His mind seems to be being made up by a Tannadice faithful who are letting him know they will turn their back on the club if he favours a Rangers newco. “I was told that, at Motherwell at the end of last season, every turnstile had a poster above it saying 'no to newco’. It was the same at Aberdeen. Fans are feeling very strongly about it. I have been sent hundreds of letters and emails on the subject. Some of them are from people who have been season-ticket holders for 30 years. I have made my mind up, which I won’t go public on. You have to listen to the fans as well but you have a responsibility to the club as well. That doesn’t necessarily mean I want them in. Don’t read too much in that.”
How they might vote: A probable 'no’ but might be swayed with heavy sanctions for a newco Rangers.
HEARTS
On the line for around £600,000 in lost revenue if the TV deal takes a heavy hit with no Rangers in the SPL, money – including the £800,000 Rangers owe them for Lee Wallace – will dictate their attitude. Hence director Sergejus Fedotovas’ take: “Justice is very important but lessons learned are more valuable. Scottish football should not put all focus on the punishment.”
How they might vote: Certain to back a Rangers return.
HIBERNIAN
No-one has been more unequivocal about their rejection of a fiscal imperative to accept Rangers as a newco than Hibernian chairman Rod Petrie. “Fundamental to us at our club is to make sure the integrity of the game is not called into question and that the sporting integrity of the competition we take part in is maintained at the highest standards. It’s not a question of any sum of money in return for that integrity – integrity is beyond purchase. It’s important that all clubs can have a place within football, provided they have earned it in a sporting sense and also have abided by the rules. If we are called upon to make any decisions we will try to do the right thing and uphold the integrity of the competition that we are engaged in.”
How they might vote: A Rangers refusnik.
INVERNESS CT
Reacted angrily to Rangers’ Court of Session challenge to the SFA but won’t want any uncertainties over revenues when finances tight. Chairman Kenny Cameron said: “There is much still to discuss – but I hope this will bring certainty and closure to this issue. We just need to move on from this situation.”
How they might vote: Will want a Rangers in the SPL.
KILMARNOCK
There is no guesswork required to determine the intentions of club chairman Michael Johnston. “Members see the commercial benefits of having Rangers, even as a newco,” he said last month. “The clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect, but the commercial benefits may outweigh that.”
How they might vote: Another certainty to accept any Rangers. Johnston has also cautioned against any further punishments for the club that plays out of Ibrox.
MOTHERWELL
Another club whose minds might be made up by their masses, the club’s proposed fan ownership model is dependent on listening to them. As they admitted in mealy-mouth fashion. “We do not believe we can separate the sporting integrity of our league from the sustainable future of our club – the two go hand-in-hand. Any decisions we take as a board are made in the best interests of the club with a view to achieving our stated aims for ownership and funding. [A newco proposal we would] fully discuss with representatives of our supporters’ groups, prior to making any decision.”
How they might vote: The rank and file seem to be pushing them reluctantly towards the 'no’ camp.
ROSS COUNTY
The newest member of the 11, they are not financially dependent on the SPL, in whatever form it takes. Their chairman Roy MacGregor’s stance reflects that. “I will listen to the arguments. I will not prejudge. We are taking a calculated risk on our budget for next season and it was done before this situation. It will make no difference,” he said.
How they might vote: For their first season among the elite they could feel cheated if there was no Rangers. File under “don’t know”.
ST JOHNSTONE
Contradictory noises have come from chairman Steven Brown. Has said his club don’t need Rangers but that it would be a “disaster” if the brand was lost to the SPL. Then last week he stated: “I certainly will not let Rangers in without sanctions. The feeling from the people I’ve spoken to is they won’t let Rangers in with a 'get out free card’.”
How they might vote: Will vote Rangers in with the right penalty tariff.
ST MIRREN
Another of the swaying brigade, chairman Stewart Gilmour has previously stated Scottish football needs “a strong Rangers and a strong Celtic” but lacerated the Ibrox club for their legal recourse beyond the game. St Mirren’s position will be determined by whether any newco vote is held before 4 July, when ownership of the club is set to transfer to a supporters’ group.
How they might vote: If the current board are still in place Rangers will be supported, if the fans group have taken over perhaps not.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footb...s-might-vote-on-newco-in-top-flight-1-2351524
Not sure I agree with them or what exactly they are basing this on, but that would put the count at 5-5, with Ross County an unknown and it being unclear whether New Rangers would get a vote.
Anyway, Aberdeen, Celtic, Hibs, Utd and Motherwell voting against the hun would be enough to block the admission of the newco.
Still, the more I read, the less likely a vote seems.
I think there is every chance that the New Huns will not be in a position to play any football next season.
Keep in mind also that footballing sanctions that would have been applied to the oldco will still apply to the newco, so there is still a distinct possibility of them being kicked out of Scottish football for all their past crimes.
I think there is every chance that the New Huns will not be in a position to play any football next season.
Keep in mind also that footballing sanctions that would have been applied to the oldco will still apply to the newco, so there is still a distinct possibility of them being kicked out of Scottish football for all their past crimes.
P&J just has this picture of Aberdeen fans at Ibrox on the back page:
---------- Post added 13.06.2012 at 16:42 ----------
Has there ever been an instance of the biggest club in a country going bust before?
I can't think of one.
---------- Post added 13.06.2012 at 16:42 ----------
I haven't ever followed Scottish football before (and probably never will) but this is quite interesting so keep the updates coming 
I can't think of one.