World Christian Day- The account of a non believer. (5 Viewers)

[Dan]

Welcome all other non believers.

I, Daniel, have had pious people crawling all over me today whilst i attended a mass being held on the surroundings of Koln's football stadium. I shall now account day 1 of my adventure into the world of the christians.

I knew the world christian day was here, but i tried to stay in and avoid it, being a non believer. But I had to see what all the fuss was about, so I decided to meet my friends who were similary curious. I took a bus and a tram and arrived at the Aacherner Strasse, where I was greeted by vast crowds of people waving the their country flags respectively, in which Italians held the vast majority. The trams were blocked, and I foolishly stood around waiting for a tram to take me to the Stadium. On my wait, I met a Canadian man with his group of children from a church organisation in Toronto. Though to be fair, I only initiated conversation and aided him in his search of the stadium only so I could speak to one of the girls who he was with. It was much rewarded, as instead of getting anywhere with this girl, I received ' Jesus thanks you ' and a pin of the Canadian Flag. My friends had already arrived at the stadium, so I knew I had to walk it. I had to go between the swams of Christians themselves and find my way to the stadium. As I began my walk, I heard several reditions of popular christian music such as: When the saints go marching in.

After an arduous hike of about 20 minutes between the people, I arrived at the stadium and found my friends. One of my friends was even willing to read an extract of Nietzsche for 3 euros, but he chicked out in the end when I choose for him the most anti-semantic parts ( God is dead! and we have killed him!) Anyway, we proceeded into the mass on the field and an encountered people chanting along with some bishops on a Giant television screen. We all got to shake hands with everyone, until an American woman kicked us out of the crowd because ' We werent enjoying the mass '. Instead of contradicting her and assuring her I was loving 5 elderly men muttering latin, Myself and my friends decided to leave.

I soon split up with my friends and headed back home. However, on my way there I happened to meet some christians from Michigan and began chatting to them, assuring them I was completely 100% catholic. This was again only a ploy to chat some young women up, of course. I chatted also to a young man who orginally came from Iraq but lived in America and was following the christian ways. After a stream of sludge had left my mouth, I had no will to continue lying to these people, which was fortunate as they parted ways. That was when I realised that it was useless lying anyway, as I remembered that Christian girls believe in sex after marrige, thus probably even eliminating any chances of them being interested in myself in the first place.

So that is it- A first hand account of a non believer. And possibly 5 more accounts to come, depending if this author dares to venture out into the masses again.

 

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[Slagathor]

Sex after marriage? I thought they just waited until the wedding was over

Sounds intriguing... :undecide:

 

[Tom]

I love how most of your day was spent trying to pull - that sort of attitude will ensure you get on in life

 

[Dan]

++ [ originally posted by Tom ] ++
I love how most of your day was spent trying to pull - that sort of attitude will ensure you get on in life

The way I look at it its like a 1/10 chance anyway. But within a month thats 3 girls I could pull!

++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
Sex after marriage? I thought they just waited until the wedding was over

Sounds intriguing... :undecide:

Heh. Well, Ill make it my aim this week to make out with a Christian girl.


Are you both non believers?

 

[Tom]

3 girls in a month is a good start. Right now I'm on about 15 for this fortnight but then I've been out on the piss every night so far just about - and most of them were right horrible munters anyway

100% non-believer by the way, I reckon its all codswollop

 

[Dan]

++ [ originally posted by Tom ] ++
3 girls in a month is a good start. Right now I'm on about 15 for this fortnight but then I've been out on the piss every night so far just about - and most of them were right horrible munters anyway

100% non-believer by the way, I reckon its all codswollop

You are probably in the peak of the old womanizing thing eh? Im just getting started.

I know, I dont believe in anything the church has to say. I think its a bit ridiculous that people live their lives in a way for an afterlife which is no certainty.

I think there is a good anology that sums it up: Think of yourself as a child on a playground: Do you get on your knees and praise the manufactuer of the slides and swings, or do you go enjoy the slides and swings? Every religious person I met has almost no comeback to it; except the ones who believe that a divine creator would actually be wanting to be praised the whole time

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Dan ] ++
I think there is a good anology that sums it up: Think of yourself as a child on a playground: Do you get on your knees and praise the manufactuer of the slides and swings, or do you go enjoy the slides and swings? Every religious person I met has almost no comeback to it; except the ones who believe that a divine creator would actually be wanting to be praised the whole time

There are ways to do both, you know.

 

[Dan]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


There are ways to do both, you know.

Really? So being pious is really the best way to live your life? The characteristic that a God actually wants praise is human given. Do you think the ultimate being, presuming there is one, would need praise from these humans he created?

and what about animals? They dont praise god. I guess its straight to hell with them.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Dan ] ++


Really? So being pious is really the best way to live your life? The characteristic that a God actually wants praise is human given. Do you think the ultimate being, presuming there is one, would need praise from these humans he created?

Hey, I don't really care how you live your life. It's not on me, so let yourself go. The whole point of religion is belief in a supreme being, one that cares for us and helps us through difficult times. People of religion understand that the key to the afterlife is living your current life in the best way possible, and that includes worshiping the creator who gave you your life in the first place. In religion, without God, there is no life. So that is why they praise God.

and what about animals? They dont praise god. I guess its straight to hell with them.

Oh really? Did your dog Fido tell you that?

 

[Slagathor]

++ [ originally posted by Dan ] ++
Heh. Well, Ill make it my aim this week to make out with a Christian girl.

Oohh good luck :thumb:

Are you both non believers?

Yes I am.

 

[Dan]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


Hey, I don't really care how you live your life. It's not on me, so let yourself go. The whole point of religion is belief in a supreme being, one that cares for us and helps us through difficult times. People of religion understand that the key to the afterlife is living your current life in the best way possible, and that includes worshiping the creator who gave you your life in the first place. In religion, without God, there is no life. So that is why they praise God.



Oh really? Did your dog Fido tell you that?

Then whats this whole hide and seek game? I used to be christian too Andy, but I relised how wrong it all is. You dont need to tell me what religion is all about thanks. But what if I want to go around sleeping with random women? Thats ****ing great fun, but the church frowns on that. What about gays? They are restriced. Can they live the best possible lives? No. Not to mention, how can God be against gays? Didnt he create them? Why would God create his own enemy? It would be like me hitting a man in a wheelchair and then showing him where the neartest ammunition refinery is! So basically, what you are saying is a charade- for morals were given unto men by themselves, not the divine or God.

And why would living my life the best possible way be sitting in a church praying to god? Do you ever wonder why children squirm and are never still in church? Because they dont enjoy sitting there. Its not natrual. They want to go out and play and enjoy their lives.

Did all the cavemen who didnt know about religion go to hell? They didnt praise a god, how could they know? The thought probably never even entered their head!

I would like you to answer all these questions please. And Andy, I know im younger then you but this doesnt mean you have to stoop to insults said at an even younger age then me. This isnt a ' how low can you go' comepitition.

 

[ali-P]

isn't christian day in 31 december?

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Dan ] ++


Then whats this whole hide and seek game? I used to be christian too Andy, but I relised how wrong it all is. You dont need to tell me what religion is all about thanks. But what if I want to go around sleeping with random women? Thats ****ing great fun, but the church frowns on that. What about gays? They are restriced. Can they live the best possible lives? No. Not to mention, how can God be against gays? Didnt he create them? Why would God create his own enemy? It would be like me hitting a man in a wheelchair and then showing him where the neartest ammunition refinery is! So basically, what you are saying is a charade- for morals were given unto men by themselves, not the divine or God.

Sex is what you call a temptation, and the church believes you should keep sex for marraige because it should only be given to your lifelong partner. Agree or disagree, that is what they teach.

The church believes that homosexuals became homosexual on their own, not born in such a way. Or in other words God did not create homosexuals, they became one on their own. I have nothing against them and I do not know the answer to the question how do homosexuals originate. They are people too and the church aknowledges that, and again this discussion goes hand in hand with the "free will" theory. People have their own free will to do whatever they want, live their lives according to what they believe in. Personally I believe if gays live their life serving God's will and loving all humans, they should be considered for heaven as well.

And why would living my life the best possible way be sitting in a church praying to god? Do you ever wonder why children squirm and are never still in church? Because they dont enjoy sitting there. Its not natrual. They want to go out and play and enjoy their lives.

I'm not sure if you able to understand the whole concept of church. Sure, many people may not enjoy being there, however one hour out of your life per week is not much to sacrifice for God to spend time worshiping at his "house." Those "I don't want to be here" feelings are supposedly the devil trying to get the better of you. This has nothing to do with what is natural or not.

Did all the cavemen who didnt know about religion go to hell? They didnt praise a god, how could they know? The thought probably never even entered their head!

I have no answer to that, and neither does anybody else on earth. Even us humans do not understand why we are actually here or how we were made, so for lesser beings thousands and thousands of years ago not knowing much about life is quite understandable. Religion and evolution, even though subjects that can be considered enemies of each other, can go hand in hand to explain certain matters IMO.

I would like you to answer all these questions please. And Andy, I know im younger then you but this doesnt mean you have to stoop to insults said at an even younger age then me. This isnt a ' how low can you go' comepitition.

What are you talking about...where did I insult you? My first feeling about a thread like this makes me believe it's just another "lets patronize religion" thread. Hopefully it will not turn in to another one of those unsavory discussions. We have had enough of those..

 

[Dan]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


Sex is what you call a temptation, and the church believes you should keep sex for marraige because it should only be given to your lifelong partner. Agree or disagree, that is what they teach.

The church believes that homosexuals became homosexual on their own, not born in such a way. Or in other words God did not create homosexuals, they became one on their own. I have nothing against them and I do not know the answer to the question how do homosexuals originate. They are people too and the church aknowledges that, and again this discussion goes hand in hand with the "free will" theory. People have their own free will to do whatever they want, live their lives according to what they believe in. Personally I believe if gays live their life serving God's will and loving all humans, they should be considered for heaven as well.



I'm not sure if you able to understand the whole concept of church. Sure, many people may not enjoy being there, however one hour out of your life per week is not much to sacrifice for God to spend time worshiping at his "house." Those "I don't want to be here" feelings are supposedly the devil trying to get the better of you. This has nothing to do with what is natural or not.



I have no answer to that, and neither does anybody else on earth. Even us humans do not understand why we are actually here or how we were made, so for lesser beings thousands and thousands of years ago not knowing much about life is quite understandable. Religion and evolution, even though subjects that can be considered enemies of each other, can go hand in hand to explain certain matters IMO.



What are you talking about...where did I insult you? My first feeling about a thread like this makes me believe it's just another "lets patronize religion" thread. Hopefully it will not turn in to another one of those unsavory discussions. We have had enough of those..

Ok before i start ill just say ill respond to each paragraph with my own one. When im done ill move on to the next.

Well why would god give people the ability to have temptation? If we study animals they in no way follow the teachings of the church. Why, us, homosapiens, who evolved from the same orgamisms, be any different?

God still gave people the ability to become homosexuals by merely creating them. If god thought of every aspect of man, surely he thought of the homosexuality as a possiblity? I also read the other day that homosexuality is an inbalance of one particular chemical in the brain when the foetus is made. So the church, now proved wrong by science should go back on it and change their dogma, like how they did with gallieo. Isnt it funny that whenever someone goes against the churchs teachings they end up suffering? (in history that is) If the church adknowledges that gays are human too, surely they can grant them the same rights as any other people? Is it no surprise that the gay people in Koln are likely to protest against the pope? What is God's will? Is his will for us to serve his desires? A God, of this magnitude, providing he is the ultimate creator, would he need people to serve his will? Thats again, a human trait given to something divine. People were given free will, but its morals that keep us from raping and theiving. However, as I said, Morals were given to men by men themselves. So, by following these morals that men have given themselves, we get into this really exlcusive afterlife called heaven? And if we dont we are ****ed? Well, sorry, but where do I stand? Me, the person who doesnt enjoy any aspect of religion? God created me just so im destined to go to hell? What kind of a sick god are we talking about here?

One hour of my life that god has given me thrown down the drain? Its alot more then that anyway Andy. The church teaches you to pray before you eat, and give up certain things. It has EVERYTHING to do with what is natrual and what is not. Children mess about all over the place when they are bored: Ie not enjoying their life. The Devil, however, cannot exist for there is no Good and Evil- for men have decided what is valued as good and what is valued as Evil. Men themselves, have choosen rape as evil. They have choosen Chastity as good. These are examples, but these did not come from ' the beyond '. Not to mention, that whereever you go in the world, people believe different things and carry out different practices- the death penalty for example. Some people view it as good, others evil. This is why there is no universal good and evil- its impossible to say that, for example, the terroists attacking the US are wrong- in our eyes yes (and In mine too before you attack me on that) But, however, not in theirs. So if there is no universal good and evil, how can there be a Hell? Thus, the devil controlling the child is inconceivable.


Of course we do not understand why were are here- its obvious after thousands of years of thinking that our human minds cannot bend far enough to figure out the answer of exsistance. Thats a given.


The Fido comment was childish Andy. You do have class, but its ridiculous to throw it away with these comments.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Dan ] ++
Well why would god give people the ability to have temptation? If we study animals they in no way follow the teachings of the church. Why, us, homosapiens, who evolved from the same orgamisms, be any different?

God did not give us temptation, the Devil gave us temptation. See Adam and Eve for discussion about this.

God still gave people the ability to become homosexuals by merely creating them. If god thought of every aspect of man, surely he thought of the homosexuality as a possiblity? I also read the other day that homosexuality is an inbalance of one particular chemical in the brain when the foetus is made. So the church, now proved wrong by science should go back on it and change their dogma, like how they did with gallieo. Isnt it funny that whenever someone goes against the churchs teachings they end up suffering? (in history that is) If the church adknowledges that gays are human too, surely they can grant them the same rights as any other people? Is it no surprise that the gay people in Koln are likely to protest against the pope? What is God's will? Is his will for us to serve his desires? A God, of this magnitude, providing he is the ultimate creator, would he need people to serve his will? Thats again, a human trait given to something divine. People were given free will, but its morals that keep us from raping and theiving. However, as I said, Morals were given to men by men themselves. So, by following these morals that men have given themselves, we get into this really exlcusive afterlife called heaven? And if we dont we are ****ed? Well, sorry, but where do I stand? Me, the person who doesnt enjoy any aspect of religion? God created me just so im destined to go to hell? What kind of a sick god are we talking about here?

Where do you stand? You stand in the group of people that have turned away from God's teachings, however the door is always open for you. That is what a priest would say.

About homosexuality, I don't think I have ever seen proof that it occurs because of a chemical imbalance of the brain. The church aknowledges that gays are indeed humans, so I'm not sure where you got that from. As for God's will, he wants us to live our lives just as he did, with comparison for all living beings. I do not recall any passages from the Bible that discusses Jesus dealing with homosexuals, however I doubt he would castigate them. You know what he would do? Treat them as any other human being, with love and respect. This is what God calls us to do in our lives.

God does not need us to "serve his will," however he wants us to serve His will because that is in the best interest of everybody he created. As I stated earlier, His will consists of love and compassion, and if everybody would live like him the world would be free of hate, wars, bigotry, and people would be able to live happily. God does not want us to serve him just because he likes being served, He wants us to work for him on Earth to create a better world for the rest of "His Children" to live in. It is not selfish at all on his part; he only wants what is best for His people. God wants us to treat people with equal love and respect towards the rest of His people because he loves us all, even when people do something against his teachings. You seem to think God is just a selfish power-hungry being...not the case at all.

One hour of my life that god has given me thrown down the drain? Its alot more then that anyway Andy. The church teaches you to pray before you eat, and give up certain things. It has EVERYTHING to do with what is natrual and what is not. Children mess about all over the place when they are bored: Ie not enjoying their life. The Devil, however, cannot exist for there is no Good and Evil- for men have decided what is valued as good and what is valued as Evil. Men themselves, have choosen rape as evil. They have choosen Chastity as good. These are examples, but these did not come from ' the beyond '. Not to mention, that whereever you go in the world, people believe different things and carry out different practices- the death penalty for example. Some people view it as good, others evil. This is why there is no universal good and evil- its impossible to say that, for example, the terroists attacking the US are wrong- in our eyes yes (and In mine too before you attack me on that) But, however, not in theirs. So if there is no universal good and evil, how can there be a Hell? Thus, the devil controlling the child is inconceivable.

How is it inconceivable? In the eyes of the church any killing is evil, thats the whole point of religion! And in the case of toddlers, you are right, it is their nature to become restless in church because they do not know better. When you become old enough to realize church is needed for your spiritual life, that is when the devil starts to tempt you into not going. Hence, I made a mistake describing that to you. This is very much like the cavemen discussion and how they did not know of any supreme being...neither do these kids who are too young to understand. That is indeed natural.

The Fido comment was childish Andy. You do have class, but its ridiculous to throw it away with these comments.

That was just mere sarcasm, not an attack on you Dan. We have no idea what animals do in their spare time or what they think.

 

[swag]

Arguments of faith versus science aside, I think your trip would have been far more compelling, Dan, as more of an observer than a doer.

It would be one thing, for example, if I were to step into a Hindu temple, paid the same respects they did and tried to learn what motivated their customs and thinking -- even if I could not fully relate to it.

It would be another thing if I went in telling everyone I was reincarnated in the spirit of Brahman, started impersonating Abu from The Simpsons, and ate McDonald's hamburgers with a vengeance.

Why even bother going if for little more than to mock the beliefs of others? Seems kind of pointless and a waste of time.

 

[Slagathor]

Apu, not Abu.

What's that? Inappropriate? Oh, sorry.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by swag ] ++
Why even bother going if for little more than to mock the beliefs of others? Seems kind of pointless and a waste of time.

I concur Greg, nice post.

 

[swag]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


I concur Greg, nice post.

Thanks. Though all bets are off if they come knocking on my door, as a counter-example.

 

[Dan]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


God did not give us temptation, the Devil gave us temptation. See Adam and Eve for discussion about this.



Where do you stand? You stand in the group of people that have turned away from God's teachings, however the door is always open for you. That is what a priest would say.

About homosexuality, I don't think I have ever seen proof that it occurs because of a chemical imbalance of the brain. The church aknowledges that gays are indeed humans, so I'm not sure where you got that from. As for God's will, he wants us to live our lives just as he did , with comparison for all living beings. I do not recall any passages from the Bible that discusses Jesus dealing with homosexuals, however I doubt he would castigate them. You know what he would do? Treat them as any other human being, with love and respect. This is what God calls us to do in our lives.

God does not need us to "serve his will," however he wants us to serve His will because that is in the best interest of everybody he created. As I stated earlier, His will consists of love and compassion, and if everybody would live like him the world would be free of hate, wars, bigotry, and people would be able to live happily. God does not want us to serve him just because he likes being served, He wants us to work for him on Earth to create a better world for the rest of "His Children" to live in. It is not selfish at all on his part; he only wants what is best for His people. God wants us to treat people with equal love and respect towards the rest of His people because he loves us all, even when people do something against his teachings. You seem to think God is just a selfish power-hungry being...not the case at all.



How is it inconceivable? In the eyes of the church any killing is evil, thats the whole point of religion! And in the case of toddlers, you are right, it is their nature to become restless in church because they do not know better. When you become old enough to realize church is needed for your spiritual life, that is when the devil starts to tempt you into not going. Hence, I made a mistake describing that to you. This is very much like the cavemen discussion and how they did not know of any supreme being...neither do these kids who are too young to understand. That is indeed natural.




That was just mere sarcasm, not an attack on you Dan. We have no idea what animals do in their spare time or what they think.

Ok, same as last time:

Temptation is only called evil by man. If you say this, you disregard what i mentioned about men making their only morals- temptation is called Evil by man, not a divine creator.

Despite homosexuality being a chemical imbalance or not, it does not matter. For god to be able to create homosexuality, he must of conceived it. He must of had the idea and made man able to become homosexuality, so how can he call that a sin? The church still, whether you like it or not, frowns on homosexuality. It is a sin, is it not? Why cant homosexuals live their lives in peace?
If God did indeed choose free will, we would be no more than an experiment. So we are the subject of a sick god? Who put us on the earth to see if we are fit enough to get into heaven, despite making us himself? Even religion believes that men didnt evolve- how is that so? How do they explain dinosaur bones? God put it there to test our faith? Come on now. Even if they were to go back on it now, as they did with Galileo, it still proves that the church erases pieces of the story that dont match anymore, when concrete evidence finally proves their stories wrong.

So, the best interests of me are to be meek, submissive and moral? Sorry, but these things dont pique my lust for life. If indeed it feels good, it must be good. However, logic comes into play here because it would feel good to for example kill someone who is pissing you off, but that would just land you in jail. Surely my best interests are to live my life as I see best, which would bring me the most fun? Surely the ancient greeks had better gods; at least theirs valued strength and fun!

If god really wanted us to work towards a better world, surely he would of programmed us so that we had no comprehension of evil (in his eyes at least) This way, he is really setting himself up for a dissapointment! Its like programming a machine to do as he pleases, and then keep trying to coax him into doing things your way when all he wants to do is have fun. Why wouldnt you just program him to be a slave? It makes more sense that way. God has given us the chance to be bigots, as god would of given us the programming to be a bigot. God created our minds so that we could conceive such things as racism. Whilst I personally dont approve of being racist, surely this god wouldnt of given people the idea of even being racist if he wanted us to follow his way?

Of course in the eyes of the church its evil. But then again, im attacking the whole concept of good and evil- it wasnt given to us from the divine. We ourselves made our own devils and angels.

Now the part in italic- that sounds out of a story book! It sounds like someone once asked the same question I asked and now suddenly when the child realises it doesnt have to go to church, thats the devil talking to it? What kind of a god would want people to go to church regulary to praise him? This is, once again, A trait that a man has placed upon the creator. So where does ' if you dont go to church you will go to hell' come from? If i dont give up an hour every sunday, ill burn in hell? If i dont keep praising god, he will send me to a fiery afterworld? That is the trait of a vengeful god andy, not a loving and giving one. Thus, it is a charade.