Winter Mercato 2015 (43 Viewers)

[PowerNedved]

You think Vidal would be exhausted by half time if Juve asked him to cover an opposition fullback?



The days of the trequartista being allowed to be a pure luxury player are long gone. They are all expected now to make a defensive contribution.

And why do you think dropping a bit deeper into midfield to fill a a space would be particularly tiring? I'm not suggesting you are going to ask a trequartista to go into midfield and play like Gattuso.

And when the trequartista drops deep, one of the strikers drops a little deeper to avoid the team getting stretched and and to avoid the gap between midfield and attack becoming too big.

Your attacking shape and your defending shape don't need to be the same. You could easily be a 4-3-1-2 team when attacking and then drop back into something that looks much more like 4-4-1-1 when defending.

Are you against 4-3-1-2 because you believe it involves having three players in the team who should do no defensive work? Because I believe that is a flawed viewpoint for a number of reasons.

1. Vidal would be pissed cuz your using him to mark a fullback the whole match.
2. Mourinho disliked Mata for that reason, he didn't drop to do defensive work.
3. In the early 2000 the standard system was 442 so when the 4312 appeared it allowed the trequartista to place between the CB and DM so it was deadly at the time.
4. The 4312 has evolved to 3412 and 4231 which allows you to use a trequartista but covering the wide spaces more efficiently. Why? because in those systems the players who recovers the ball from the fullback is a sidemidfielder or a wingback so he has free space to run the line and make a good cross.

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Finally the 4312 Allegri used in Milan cant be a reference to us, their midfield was Van Bommel, Aquilani, Nocerino, Muntari, Gattuso, Flamini, Montolivo, Boateng so they at least had to defend well cuz I dont remember they were any special in creativity and attack.

 

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[napoleonic]

4312 with evra and litch as fullbacks and vidal asamoah pogba as cm with mata as cam is balanced enough

Vidal and asamoah can drift wide, with asamoah already been playing as wingback for seasons there will be no reason why he can't play cm lm hybrid

Same with vidal on the right as he has done it numerous times for us

Finally we have pogba in the middle with such excellent physicallity and technique he would be perfect for the role being a dm but allowed to attack far when needed

Obviously is no perfect strategy but hey why not?

Sometimes you have be brave to try something new than always playing it safe

Another important set up is to deploy the striker duo to attack wide to exploit the opposition who like to utilize width against 4312 at least to make their fullbacks or wingbacks more hesistant to attack far and if they do we can punish them on counter, tevez coman can be deadly in such strategy

 

[PowerNedved]

Another important set up is to deploy the striker duo to attack wide to exploit the opposition who like to utilize width against 4312 at least to make their fullbacks or wingbacks more hesistant to attack far and if they do we can punish them on counter, tevez coman can be deadly in such strategy

4312 with the strikers playing wide (wingers) is 433 with false nine, what FCB does, so you're talking about a different formation. Also if we play 4312 we would have to bench Asamoah or play Pogba as DM so NOT; if we play 433 with false nine Llorente would be benched or sold but honestly he has earned a spot here, plus we'd need to buy an experienced winger cuz Coman, Berardi and Pereyra won't be enough.

 

[napoleonic]

4312 with the strikers playing wide (wingers) is 433 with false nine, what FCB does, so you're talking about a different formation. Also if we play 4312 we would have to bench Asamoah or play Pogba as DM so NOT; if we play 433 with false nine Llorente would be benched or sold but honestly he has earned a spot here, plus we'd need to buy an experienced winger cuz Coman, Berardi and Pereyra won't be enough.

Man you are thinking it too orthodoxy, just because strikers are told to exploit width doesn't mean they are becoming wingers, take a look at cassano balotelli at euro 12 opening match against spain, they were attacking wide at times and succeeded and didn't mean they were playing as wingers did they? Furthermore many right footed ss drift wide to the left never meant they were wingers.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

This discussion is a slight improvement on the tactical debates Badass and Janna used to have.

 

[PowerNedved]

Man you are thinking it too orthodoxy, just because strikers are told to exploit width doesn't mean they are becoming wingers, take a look at cassano balotelli at euro 12 opening match against spain, they were attacking wide at times and succeeded and didn't mean they were playing as wingers did they? Furthermore many right footed ss drift wide to the left never meant they were wingers.

All the CF go down o to the side AT TIMES when they want to get rid off their defender, but that is when they're attacking, when they're defending they can't chase the fullback all the way to the side of the midfield (That's also on Cruyff utube video btw) because it would be a tactical horror and the CF would get burnt eventually. That's one of the reasons Messi plays false nine cuz as a winger he would have to chase the fullback, getting him far from goal unlike for false nine where he just drops down to press the DM and is only a few meters away from scoring area.

Most of the 19 goals Alexis Sanchez scored in La Liga past season were when he played as false 9 cuz Messi was injured. The defensive responsability of a winger compared to a CF affected a lot the performance of a player like Sanchez, imagine Llorente or Tevez, who are way slower, having to mark the fullback and you'll get why 4312 is impossible.

 

[Adrian]

-------------buffon
lich --barz---- chiellini --evra(or asamoah)
-------vidal pirlo pogba
coman* -----------------mata
-------------tevez

*berardi option next season....

surely this could work?

 

[napoleonic]

4312 with the strikers playing wide (wingers) is 433 with false nine, what FCB does, so you're talking about a different formation. Also if we play 4312 we would have to bench Asamoah or play Pogba as DM so NOT; if we play 433 with false nine Llorente would be benched or sold but honestly he has earned a spot here, plus we'd need to buy an experienced winger cuz Coman, Berardi and Pereyra won't be enough.

Where did I say the cf have to track back and mark opposition fullbacks? Cms like asamoah and vidal can help our own fullbacks enough from oppositions' wingers and fullbacks

 

[PowerNedved]

-------------buffon
lich --barz---- chiellini --evra(or asamoah)
-------vidal pirlo pogba
coman* -----------------mata
-------------tevez

*berardi option next season....

surely this could work?

Mata as winger? really?

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Where did I say the cf have to track back and mark opposition fullbacks? Cms like asamoah and vidal can help our own fullbacks enough from oppositions' wingers and fullbacks

So you want CF to play wide (but not as wingers) so the fullback has to worry about them, but when the fullback goes up they just let him go and say "Its Vidal's problem now"

 

[napoleonic]

Mata as winger? really?

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So you want CF to play wide (but not as wingers) so the fullback has to worry about them, but when the fullback goes up they just let him go and say "Its Vidal's problem now"

Yeah dude it's precisely why it's called strategy, so what if 2 out of 11 players don't do that much effort to defend? Doesn't mean the opposition will be guaranteed to score against us; on other hand we would be easier to counter them if the opposition truly dare to leave such holes on their flanks

Sometimes deterrent > actual defense, by creating enough potential threats we can make the opposition less aggressive against us

 

[PowerNedved]

Let me explain you how the tactical movement of the 3421 would be:

1. Initial 4321 formation against a 433 team for example FC Barcelona

--------Buffon
--Barza--Bonu--Chielli
Lich--Vidal--Pogba--Asa
--Pereyra----Tevez
-------Llorente

--Neymar--Messi--Suarez
--Iniesta--Busquets--Xavi
Alba--Mathieu--Pique--Alves
-----------Bravo

2. Now as FCB attack they drop Busquets to form a back 3 with Pique and Mathieu (that's why they were looking for a left CB after Abidal left), so Alves and Alba go forward. In that case Licht drops as RB and Pereyra as RM so the team just have to make to changes that aren't far from their initial position.

---------Buffon
Lich---Barza--Bonu---Chielli
Perey--Vidal--Pogba---Asa
----Llorente--Tevez

--Neymar--Messi--Suarez
Alba---Iniesta---Xavi---Alves
--Mathieu--Busquets--Pique
-----------Bravo

3. Now if any of Alves or Alba fail and lose the ball, the sidemidfielder (Pereyra or Asamoah) not only has no cover against him already has two strikers against three CB so it would be one on one. There you played two formations without any drastical alteration.

 

[Robee]

So it's a tactic thread now... Marcelo, Sturaro, Vrsaljko, Depay, Zaza, Berardi, Nastasic, Rabiot. Don't need tactics, need new shiny toys

 

[Papi-a]

Tevez - Llorente
Mata
Pogba - Vidal
Pirlo​

That is top, top European quality.

Terible! Great players - But not One player able to drible past his marker!

 

[Robee]

Terible! Great players - But not One player able to drible past his marker!

Pogba can, but I know what you mean.

 

[napoleonic]

Lmao bonucci against neymar/messi/suarez

Litch barza chiel evra
Vidal pogba asamoah
Pereyra coman
Tevez

Coman and tevez to attack barca right wing on counter

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Tevez
Mata
Pogba - Asamoah - Vidal
De Jong​

id rather see this with more attacking wingbacks, if you need more firepower drop the DM spot and go for a 4-2-3-1

 

[GrecoJuve]

De Jong
what a player, the classic DM...Milan are really lucky to have him!

 

[GordoDeCentral]

if we get him, 8-9 mil he could also help delay our upgrading of CBs

 

[Oggy]

anal-ogy

Someone called me to give him an anal?

 

[Nzoric]

De Jong would be a solid acquisition, but we'd surely have to sell a CM if we get him. Marchisio? :xfinger: