[Serie A] Milan-Juventus (8 Viewers)

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,506
++ [ originally posted by sateeh ] ++


agreed abt the first part with the any formations used.But would u forgive the coach for loosing only cuz he needed to try out a new tactic?The Triad certainly wont.And many juve faithful wont be as open minded as me and u.

I cant say the whole team played badly.Emo played well in the first half.And how abt the defense, u can't deny them the praise, they shit down the milan attack completely. Thats unfair to the players.Mutu didnt play badly.Viera was obviously not fit. And hw abt camo, and zambo? they played there hearts out.

Wat do we know abt Bonnofio's getting any offers of loans or watever.. so we cant say that we only want him on the bench.

abt wat u said abt cap, and the milan-inter-bayern games.I dont think anybody here said anything abt cap is only to praise or to blame.Everybody shares the blames and the praises.Thats why this is a team, its not abt one individual.
The winning mentality is coupled with the Juventus club, it is bigger than anyone in this world.No manager or staff memeber or playeer would change it.The manager just needs to have the same mentality .
thats more like it,i can almost agree with u now:D

Now lets come to the players who did and didnt delivered,
The monkey,what IT was supposed to deliver?
u sould have picked up a human(bonnefoi)instead
and i agree he couldnt experimentate(cause he doesnt have the balls to do it,not because he afraids the triad,unlees triad is happy with his favourism on some players)
thats why i asked long time ago to use Bonnefoi in a non important game,
he didnt,he trusted the monkey,he choosed to,
he knew the programm and the risks,
there are no excuses,

Pessotto,a bad choice he admitted it taking him back,

zambro,outplaced uncessarily IMO(and prooved now as he didnt deliver smth and it wasnt his worst day)

Canna+Thuram,i agree using the rock,they were solid,nothing came through,just because Gila and Pippo havent got what needed to win them

neddy,the man tried,he run the few runs we had and shoot the shots we had,he was most of the time in Milans half leaving our half emty for counterattacks,but he wasnt effective offensively,he needs to recalibrate himself,
mutu prooved he is more effective now
Neddy didnt defend at all in this game to argue his favourismin front of Mutu,it was risk Cap failed and further more he failed to see it on time and change it,

Emo+Vieira best choice,this twin could have won us the game if they were in a normal game,again the lady ***** luck striked and Vieira had to be out of form(i wonder when we will finally play our first fit eleven against Milan)

Camo,he wasnt that impressive IMO,he prooved he may offer,we know he is creative and fast but he didnt created,maybe it was because of Zambro or wrong instructions,or Milan concentrated defencively morein his side,
i dont know,maybe a combination of the above,
Cap subbed him, noone knows why as we were playing with run and gun/cross tactics and Camo is the best man to do this in our team,
i believe with wings Mutu+Camo we would do better,

treze+Zlatan

i dont have to repeat Z is out of form,
yes we needed him bad last year when he was on form,
but right now he isnt and i blame Cap for this
and i blame Cap again because he started him now
and i blame Cap because he didnt subbed him and subbed Camo
and i blame Cap that were are not an EPL team playing with longs balls and two target mans esp having us opponents Maldini,stam and Nesta,
defenders who rock in the air,
805 of our attacks were crosses intercepted,
how many years i have te repeat this will never work with Juve against Milan and English teams,
Cap is blind and retarded for making this severe mistake and prefering English play than more tehnique players like DP and Mutu
its Caps choice 100% and it was time to pay it
and its Caps choice he didnt tried to fix his mistake that he realised earlier,
even the stubborn Cap understood it wont work this way and tried the alternative i reccomended,
i m not saying we ve lost the championship,
i am confident we will win it,
but we wont do big in CL with these tactics
 

Holygr4le

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2005
2,539
After this game I will try to define a theory on why we do not succeed against big world class motivated teams. I do not know if I agree in this theory myself. But in some parts I truly do.
Will use some good reviews and quotes from people whom opinions I highly respect.

The theory in whole is that it is a coaching error.
The system is bigger then the players and so strict that we only get 75% out of each individual.
Before you stop reading consider this:
Capello is known as a great coach over the long run. To build up a team and make them good over a whole season. But he is not a very good “coaching” coach. For example is his record against Ancelotti 3 wins and 7 losses. This indicates that in the big games he lack tactics and motivational skills. He controls the squad giving the players very clear roles they have to follow in order to fit the puzzle he is trying to create. This is a good thing in the long run but in a crusial game it is devastating. It is easy to predict for the opponents, and hard to change when change is needen. Do not forget his strong believe in this strict solution witch is shown in the things he do NOT do. Not in what he actual do.

So how is this shown in a concrete way?
Our players underachieves! Some players gets roles they do not feel comfortable in. As for example: Del Piero, Mutu, Zlatan, Emerson and Zambrotta.
Capello actually makes our best players play worse in order to get a strong collective.

I could divide the team into three groups.
One that have superb players witch today is not allowed to flourish including. Zambo, Mutu, Cammo, Nedved, Zlatan, Emerson and above all Del Piero.
Second group with those unaffected by his tactics. Kovac, Cannavaro, Thuram, Viera and Trez.
The third group were Capello is trying to adjust the team into making them fit and play the roles to create a good defense including: Chiellini, Chiementi, Giannichedda and Pessotto.

I do not understand how it can be a good idea making the first group worse3 in order to make the third group better…

I can take Ibra as an example when he is very much up for discussion (as is DP).
If he continues to play Ibra like this then its no use in keeping him.
He makes horrible decisions out there and you can tell he is frustrated and out of the play.
In Ajax he had the Nr 9. Witch is Van Bastens old nr and in Ajax that means that the offense goes by you. Nr 9 is a trequartista. In Juve he is a targetplayer. In the NT Zlatan has an average of .51 goals per game. In this system he is suffocated. As is Mutu. As is DP… Imagine giving Ronaldinho a clear role and demand him to stick to it? So this in not an excuse for Ibra. This is a theory on why our great players just disappears on the field.
But the best example by miles must be that he has made Zambo into an average player…


++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Now to our coach, yes he has won zillions of titles, scudettos and La liga but I will continue to say it, he is very lacking in my book
He has continued to persevere with a system that only works against weaker teams, like Trapatoni in world cup 2002, and Eriksson, the wrong man is blessed with array of forward talent, its like giving pearls to a swine
A midfield of Vieria and Emerson to be totally dominated is criminal and thats becos u have Camo on the right and Nedved on the left as wingers
Ffs we need more bodies in the midfield to help these 2 guys.
All the time , still playing the hapless 4-4-2
4-4-2 is not at all a bad system. No system is as long as you have flexibility in it.
4-4-2 can be 2-4-4 or 4-2-4 or 4-3-3. Its all about the players.

Imagine a midfield that is not just wide, but long as well. Were 2 or 3 midfielder follows in to the box. Zambo and Blasi (just an example) as defensive wings always follow in attack. Allowing Mutu to join attacking and Cammo to go in to the center of the pitch.
But it is all in there minds!
By knowing they can move over greater surface we will get a more flexible game.

A huge problems is that when the players have these strict roles the do not move without ball.
Just holding there position making us weak as hell.

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
This so called great coach has converted Zambrotta from a world class left ffull back to an inept right full back
Ripped this in my text above. Its just sad to see.

++ [ How many times has Crapelloo as our manager being able to iwn a game coming from behind?
Surely a great should be able to see how a game is going and be able to change the game tactically or thru change of personnel?
This is the main problem. He believes to strong in the strictness of the game.
Not trusting the players individual capacity in oblivion.


++ [ originally posted by RochemBeck ] ++
We stepped out on to the pitch tonight without any idea what to do, no specific plan in place besides just chug along as usual, and no direction despite some spirit shown by a few of our players.
Totally opposite.
Let me say that I totally agreed on your post and it made me not write one of my own cause you did get it all. But in this case I strongly believe that it is the strong idea that makes us fall.
And if your controlled like that you cant even show spirit cause the frustration just eats you alive. Just look at Mutu as he tried. It is just useless…


++ [ originally posted by RochemBeck ] ++
And what is up with these coaching decisions? Capello, what the hell were you thinking taking off Camoranesi, perhaps our greatest attacking threat in the first half, just like you did against Bayern, at halftime? Why not take off Pavel Nedved who was terrible tonight and just as bad in almost every match thus far this season? Why keep Ibrahimovic on the pitch when all he ever does is try to beat defenders one v one and give the ball away more than doing something useful with it? Why did it take so long for Del Piero to come on the pitch in the second half...hell, why didn't Alex or Mutu start, like one of them probably should have? Not to mention the lack of direction and wherewithall on the pitch by the team as a whole...did we even have a plan, Capello? We just let Pirlo have all the time in the world to use his skill and let Kaka have his way with the ball every time he recieved it...what a gameplan. Crapello let us down this time, no question. .
100 % true!
His substitutions makes no sense what so ever. Were under with 3 goals away and he waits until the 70 minute to bring the captain on the pitch??? Its just so wrong. The first thing you have to do is shake the team and make some big changes to point out the magnitude of the situation. Just wake them up.
And why Pessotto/Chiellini??? Pessotto made his best game in months and was subbed??? I know it was in order to get a stronger wing on the left but there was maybe 3 other ways of doing that in a better way.
There is no one to blame this time other then Capello.


++ [ originally posted by RochemBeck ] ++
But hopefully this performance is a wake-up call to Capello...that the good old Fabio mentality needs to be taken out back and shot and that he cannot just follow his old "tried and true" methods anymore. First of all he should just play the players who deserve to play first...even that would be a nice change from this current nonsense.
Hopefully your right…, but I do have a strong feeling you´ll be wrong.
It is just another step going for a symmetric team and role-playing at its worse.

Holygr4le
 

- vOnAm -

Senior Member
Jul 22, 2004
3,779
PLAYER OF THE WEEK

Oftentimes, it is strikers whose names are sung after victories. If they are scoring, it is them who are leading their teams to victories. What about those playing behind them? It is in the midfield where the balance of the game lies. This is where games are won and lost. Defenses cannot defend and offenses cannot attack if those in the midfield are not pulling their weight. The question is asked again, who are the unsung heroes? Who are the fighters and grinders? The answer to this was quite apparent in this week’s derby between Milan and Juventus. Milan won the battle of the midfield and consequently the match. When thinking of fighting spirit inside the red and black of Milan, one needs not look any further than the warrior known as Gennaro Gattuso. Juventus were not able to muster up many attacks and he is a major contributing factor as to why this was so. A constant thorn in the Bianconeri’s sides, he gave them little to work with. It is quite often the little things win games and in the case of the Rhino, this is totally true. Gennaro Gattuso; this week’s sung hero.

Goal.com


Oh pulease, the guy was out there to knock people's legs, if anybody should've gotten a yellow card it was him. Yes he had tons of spirit, but I hated his play, very very rough.

Can anybody make a compilation of the milan game and count how many times Juve players FLEW like birds in the air? I recall a few times when 2 Juve players flew at the same time.

++ [ originally posted by Azzurri7 ] ++


Oh Please Von....Lippi didn't had Zlatan,Mutu....we had Micco and Di Vaio...They actually did replace Dp before many times when he was injured, yet we didn't see something special from them.
I know Azzurri, but Di Viao was during very well then, and as soon as DP came back from injury he instantly gain regular first team action. To my memory it was because of that, that Di Viao became cold again. Just to point out Li[[i had preferances as well.

And Im not blind :D, I do see our striking line-up is a level (or two) above what we had when lippi was here. Zlatan is better than Di viao and Mutu is better than Miccoli. So yes I do expect us to perform better in attack. Just didn't think Capello deserved all the insults everybody here is saying.

As I've said before, give Mutu-Trez or DP-Trez a start if Cap doesn't want to go with the trident formation. Subbing Zlatan at this point is very crucial for Zlatan's own development.
 

sateeh

Day Walker
Jul 28, 2003
8,020
++ [ originally posted by Cronios ] ++


thats more like it,i can almost agree with u now:D

Now lets come to the players who did and didnt delivered,
The monkey,what IT was supposed to deliver?
u sould have picked up a human(bonnefoi)instead
and i agree he couldnt experimentate(cause he doesnt have the balls to do it,not because he afraids the triad,unlees triad is happy with his favourism on some players)
thats why i asked long time ago to use Bonnefoi in a non important game,
he didnt,he trusted the monkey,he choosed to,
he knew the programm and the risks,
there are no excuses,

Pessotto,a bad choice he admitted it taking him back,

zambro,outplaced uncessarily IMO(and prooved now as he didnt deliver smth and it wasnt his worst day)

Canna+Thuram,i agree using the rock,they were solid,nothing came through,just because Gila and Pippo havent got what needed to win them

neddy,the man tried,he run the few runs we had and shoot the shots we had,he was most of the time in Milans half leaving our half emty for counterattacks,but he wasnt effective offensively,he needs to recalibrate himself,
mutu prooved he is more effective now
Neddy didnt defend at all in this game to argue his favourismin front of Mutu,it was risk Cap failed and further more he failed to see it on time and change it,

Emo+Vieira best choice,this twin could have won us the game if they were in a normal game,again the lady ***** luck striked and Vieira had to be out of form(i wonder when we will finally play our first fit eleven against Milan)

Camo,he wasnt that impressive IMO,he prooved he may offer,we know he is creative and fast but he didnt created,maybe it was because of Zambro or wrong instructions,or Milan concentrated defencively morein his side,
i dont know,maybe a combination of the above,
Cap subbed him, noone knows why as we were playing with run and gun/cross tactics and Camo is the best man to do this in our team,
i believe with wings Mutu+Camo we would do better,

treze+Zlatan

i dont have to repeat Z is out of form,
yes we needed him bad last year when he was on form,
but right now he isnt and i blame Cap for this
and i blame Cap again because he started him now
and i blame Cap because he didnt subbed him and subbed Camo
and i blame Cap that were are not an EPL team playing with longs balls and two target mans esp having us opponents Maldini,stam and Nesta,
defenders who rock in the air,
805 of our attacks were crosses intercepted,
how many years i have te repeat this will never work with Juve against Milan and English teams,
Cap is blind and retarded for making this severe mistake and prefering English play than more tehnique players like DP and Mutu
its Caps choice 100% and it was time to pay it
and its Caps choice he didnt tried to fix his mistake that he realised earlier,
even the stubborn Cap understood it wont work this way and tried the alternative i reccomended,
i m not saying we ve lost the championship,
i am confident we will win it,
but we wont do big in CL with these tactics
well heres wat i think

abt chimenti--and bonnofeio, i know that cap should've considered putting him in more often right after that Berlusconi cup .But thats his problem, many coaches would go for experience over youth when it comes to keepers,Thats a fact.

zambo, was placed on the only for his defensive duties nothing more.If u would see the game again, and count how many times did he go head to head with fast players like serginho anf seedorf.The result would've been alot worst if he was on the left.

pessoto-i think it was the best choice at the time, and Gianluca didnt play badly.I saw him as one of our best players in the first half.But i think we needed more quality crosses from left footed players..hence chiellini.

canna+thuram-- Didnt understand what u said > sorry

emo+viera-- emo played well, and went head to head with gattuso a couple of times and he tried his best, and often dispossed kaka from the ball.Couldn't do more though, it was out of his hands.He did his job.
Viera was obviously not fit to play, One of the juventinis here has a signature abt Viera saying he doesnt get tired ever. Well last night he couldn't even run after the ball.
And if he is unfit and was played, then i place all the blame falls on cap's shoulders, and i want a dogfighter like blasi to be there or even Gianni, instead.

neddy-disappointing , and if he did start why didnt he get subbed ? thats one of caps mistakes.I agree mutu+camo r the best combination at the moment

camo-another mistake with subbing him.But i guess he didnt want to change the formation or his system.Which was another mistake.Camo didnt play that well in the begining but he excelled a bit later on in the half.

Trezi-This guy is always hungry for goals, and in this game he was running for the ball, and defending--->unlike zlatan. I remember once in the game he actually intercepted a pass from maldini or nesta cant remember then he passes to ibra and he lost it.I like they way trezi played and it breaks my heart to see ppl here saying that he was invisible.And the goal he scored is pure class.

ibra-in the begining of the game i can justify why ibra was in the starting eleven.But after that dreadful first half, then i dont knw why he was still there.The milan defenders just knew his poison, they frustrated him. Its a shame that something as little as this emotion can throw a proffesional players of his game.
I dont want to see his ass on the field on against bayern.Simple

abt cap trying to play the english game,i dont think that was the case.Our defense was just eaten alive, and before milan scored their first i actually saw some good ground play and passes.But that goal screwed everything.
Many ppl like to play with two target men, cap doesnt see ibra as a target man, as he often asks him to move to the left and right.
 

sateeh

Day Walker
Jul 28, 2003
8,020
abt wat cap said i think its very smart.

u cant expect him to go out there and say i had no midfield there and i was eaten alive.I did mistakes etc...

that was the right thing to say at that moment.

dont know if u guys read that from mourinho after the everton draw, he said my team didnt lose we won 2-1.I saw two goals for chelsea and only by everton.
 

Maresca

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2004
8,235
++ [ originally posted by Holygr4le ] ++
After this game I will try to define a theory on why we do not succeed against big world class motivated teams. I do not know if I agree in this theory myself. But in some parts I truly do.
Will use some good reviews and quotes from people whom opinions I highly respect.

The theory in whole is that it is a coaching error.
The system is bigger then the players and so strict that we only get 75% out of each individual.
Before you stop reading consider this:
Capello is known as a great coach over the long run. To build up a team and make them good over a whole season. But he is not a very good “coaching” coach. For example is his record against Ancelotti 3 wins and 7 losses. This indicates that in the big games he lack tactics and motivational skills. He controls the squad giving the players very clear roles they have to follow in order to fit the puzzle he is trying to create. This is a good thing in the long run but in a crusial game it is devastating. It is easy to predict for the opponents, and hard to change when change is needen. Do not forget his strong believe in this strict solution witch is shown in the things he do NOT do. Not in what he actual do.

So how is this shown in a concrete way?
Our players underachieves! Some players gets roles they do not feel comfortable in. As for example: Del Piero, Mutu, Zlatan, Emerson and Zambrotta.
Capello actually makes our best players play worse in order to get a strong collective.

I could divide the team into three groups.
One that have superb players witch today is not allowed to flourish including. Zambo, Mutu, Cammo, Nedved, Zlatan, Emerson and above all Del Piero.
Second group with those unaffected by his tactics. Kovac, Cannavaro, Thuram, Viera and Trez.
The third group were Capello is trying to adjust the team into making them fit and play the roles to create a good defense including: Chiellini, Chiementi, Giannichedda and Pessotto.

I do not understand how it can be a good idea making the first group worse3 in order to make the third group better…

I can take Ibra as an example when he is very much up for discussion (as is DP).
If he continues to play Ibra like this then its no use in keeping him.
He makes horrible decisions out there and you can tell he is frustrated and out of the play.
In Ajax he had the Nr 9. Witch is Van Bastens old nr and in Ajax that means that the offense goes by you. Nr 9 is a trequartista. In Juve he is a targetplayer. In the NT Zlatan has an average of .51 goals per game. In this system he is suffocated. As is Mutu. As is DP… Imagine giving Ronaldinho a clear role and demand him to stick to it? So this in not an excuse for Ibra. This is a theory on why our great players just disappears on the field.
But the best example by miles must be that he has made Zambo into an average player…




4-4-2 is not at all a bad system. No system is as long as you have flexibility in it.
4-4-2 can be 2-4-4 or 4-2-4 or 4-3-3. Its all about the players.

Imagine a midfield that is not just wide, but long as well. Were 2 or 3 midfielder follows in to the box. Zambo and Blasi (just an example) as defensive wings always follow in attack. Allowing Mutu to join attacking and Cammo to go in to the center of the pitch.
But it is all in there minds!
By knowing they can move over greater surface we will get a more flexible game.

A huge problems is that when the players have these strict roles the do not move without ball.
Just holding there position making us weak as hell.


Ripped this in my text above. Its just sad to see.


This is the main problem. He believes to strong in the strictness of the game.
Not trusting the players individual capacity in oblivion.



Totally opposite.
Let me say that I totally agreed on your post and it made me not write one of my own cause you did get it all. But in this case I strongly believe that it is the strong idea that makes us fall.
And if your controlled like that you cant even show spirit cause the frustration just eats you alive. Just look at Mutu as he tried. It is just useless…



100 % true!
His substitutions makes no sense what so ever. Were under with 3 goals away and he waits until the 70 minute to bring the captain on the pitch??? Its just so wrong. The first thing you have to do is shake the team and make some big changes to point out the magnitude of the situation. Just wake them up.
And why Pessotto/Chiellini??? Pessotto made his best game in months and was subbed??? I know it was in order to get a stronger wing on the left but there was maybe 3 other ways of doing that in a better way.
There is no one to blame this time other then Capello.



Hopefully your right…, but I do have a strong feeling you´ll be wrong.
It is just another step going for a symmetric team and role-playing at its worse.

Holygr4le
great post mate :thumb:
 

Eddy

The Maestro
Aug 20, 2005
12,645
Moggi Promises To End League Soon
10/31/2005 7:55:00 AM
The Juventus General Director still believes that the Bianconeri are the strongest team out there.
Luciano Moggi spoke again about the 3-1 defeat suffered by the Old Lady against Milan on Saturday night, stating that this episode will not tarnish the so-far impeccable season of Juventus.

“We still are a team made of champions. We did not close the league, but we shall end it. Maybe the too many praises for the records hurt us, and such a big defeat puts our feet back on the ground. But the team up till now is the same of always.”
 

Maresca

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2004
8,235
++ [ originally posted by edpiero ] ++
Moggi Promises To End League Soon
10/31/2005 7:55:00 AM
The Juventus General Director still believes that the Bianconeri are the strongest team out there.
Luciano Moggi spoke again about the 3-1 defeat suffered by the Old Lady against Milan on Saturday night, stating that this episode will not tarnish the so-far impeccable season of Juventus.

“We still are a team made of champions. We did not close the league, but we shall end it. Maybe the too many praises for the records hurt us, and such a big defeat puts our feet back on the ground. But the team up till now is the same of always.”
:blah:

this does not help. The only answer must be on the pitch.
 

Azzurri7

Pinturicchio
Moderator
Dec 16, 2003
72,692
++ [ originally posted by - vOnAm - ] ++

I know Azzurri, but Di Viao was during very well then, and as soon as DP came back from injury he instantly gain regular first team action. To my memory it was because of that, that Di Viao became cold again. Just to point out Li[[i had preferances as well.

And Im not blind :D, I do see our striking line-up is a level (or two) above what we had when lippi was here. Zlatan is better than Di viao and Mutu is better than Miccoli. So yes I do expect us to perform better in attack. Just didn't think Capello deserved all the insults everybody here is saying.

As I've said before, give Mutu-Trez or DP-Trez a start if Cap doesn't want to go with the trident formation. Subbing Zlatan at this point is very crucial for Zlatan's own development.
Thats Fair enough....
 

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,506
++ [ originally posted by sateeh ] ++


well heres wat i think

abt chimenti--and bonnofeio, i know that cap should've considered putting him in more often right after that Berlusconi cup .But thats his problem, many coaches would go for experience over youth when it comes to keepers,Thats a fact.

zambo, was placed on the only for his defensive duties nothing more.If u would see the game again, and count how many times did he go head to head with fast players like serginho anf seedorf.The result would've been alot worst if he was on the left.

pessoto-i think it was the best choice at the time, and Gianluca didnt play badly.I saw him as one of our best players in the first half.But i think we needed more quality crosses from left footed players..hence chiellini.

canna+thuram-- Didnt understand what u said > sorry

emo+viera-- emo played well, and went head to head with gattuso a couple of times and he tried his best, and often dispossed kaka from the ball.Couldn't do more though, it was out of his hands.He did his job.
Viera was obviously not fit to play, One of the juventinis here has a signature abt Viera saying he doesnt get tired ever. Well last night he couldn't even run after the ball.
And if he is unfit and was played, then i place all the blame falls on cap's shoulders, and i want a dogfighter like blasi to be there or even Gianni, instead.

neddy-disappointing , and if he did start why didnt he get subbed ? thats one of caps mistakes.I agree mutu+camo r the best combination at the moment

camo-another mistake with subbing him.But i guess he didnt want to change the formation or his system.Which was another mistake.Camo didnt play that well in the begining but he excelled a bit later on in the half.

Trezi-This guy is always hungry for goals, and in this game he was running for the ball, and defending--->unlike zlatan. I remember once in the game he actually intercepted a pass from maldini or nesta cant remember then he passes to ibra and he lost it.I like they way trezi played and it breaks my heart to see ppl here saying that he was invisible.And the goal he scored is pure class.

ibra-in the begining of the game i can justify why ibra was in the starting eleven.But after that dreadful first half, then i dont knw why he was still there.The milan defenders just knew his poison, they frustrated him. Its a shame that something as little as this emotion can throw a proffesional players of his game.
I dont want to see his ass on the field on against bayern.Simple

abt cap trying to play the english game,i dont think that was the case.Our defense was just eaten alive, and before milan scored their first i actually saw some good ground play and passes.But that goal screwed everything.
Many ppl like to play with two target men, cap doesnt see ibra as a target man, as he often asks him to move to the left and right.
Thats Fair enough too..:D
the more we speak, the more we agree,:angel:
i only have two dissagreements but it has become very tiring to argue more about this horrible game and we may tire some people her with our debate:D,
Cap did some mistakes, we all hope he wont repeat them again (but also know that he will:down:),
i hope our superclass players will be able to overcome themselves and succed without the best tactics possible...
 

sateeh

Day Walker
Jul 28, 2003
8,020
++ [ originally posted by Cronios ] ++


Thats Fair enough too..:D
the more we speak, the more we agree,:angel:
i only have two dissagreements but it has become very tiring to argue more about this horrible game and we may tire some people her with our debate:D,
Cap did some mistakes, we all hope he wont repeat them again (but also know that he will:down:),
i hope our superclass players will be able to overcome themselves and succed without the best tactics possible...
:D, good that we agree.It is a very tiring to argue more abt this game.There is a more important one coming.Everyone should just forget abt this game.

I also hope cap wont make mistakes.I find it very annoying that ppl here want him to make mistakes so he would be sacked.I dont want any more mistakes, or anybody sacking anybody cuz it will just hurt the team.At the end of the season, it will be a different matter.
 

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
Jul 16, 2002
11,482
After this game I will try to define a theory on why we do not succeed against big world class motivated teams. I do not know if I agree in this theory myself. But in some parts I truly do.
Will use some good reviews and quotes from people whom opinions I highly respect.

The theory in whole is that it is a coaching error.
The system is bigger then the players and so strict that we only get 75% out of each individual.
Before you stop reading consider this:
Capello is known as a great coach over the long run. To build up a team and make them good over a whole season. But he is not a very good “coaching” coach. For example is his record against Ancelotti 3 wins and 7 losses. This indicates that in the big games he lack tactics and motivational skills. He controls the squad giving the players very clear roles they have to follow in order to fit the puzzle he is trying to create. This is a good thing in the long run but in a crusial game it is devastating. It is easy to predict for the opponents, and hard to change when change is needen. Do not forget his strong believe in this strict solution witch is shown in the things he do NOT do. Not in what he actual do.

So how is this shown in a concrete way?
Our players underachieves! Some players gets roles they do not feel comfortable in. As for example: Del Piero, Mutu, Zlatan, Emerson and Zambrotta.
Capello actually makes our best players play worse in order to get a strong collective.

I could divide the team into three groups.
One that have superb players witch today is not allowed to flourish including. Zambo, Mutu, Cammo, Nedved, Zlatan, Emerson and above all Del Piero.
Second group with those unaffected by his tactics. Kovac, Cannavaro, Thuram, Viera and Trez.
The third group were Capello is trying to adjust the team into making them fit and play the roles to create a good defense including: Chiellini, Chiementi, Giannichedda and Pessotto.

I do not understand how it can be a good idea making the first group worse3 in order to make the third group better…

I can take Ibra as an example when he is very much up for discussion (as is DP).
If he continues to play Ibra like this then its no use in keeping him.
He makes horrible decisions out there and you can tell he is frustrated and out of the play.
In Ajax he had the Nr 9. Witch is Van Bastens old nr and in Ajax that means that the offense goes by you. Nr 9 is a trequartista. In Juve he is a targetplayer. In the NT Zlatan has an average of .51 goals per game. In this system he is suffocated. As is Mutu. As is DP… Imagine giving Ronaldinho a clear role and demand him to stick to it? So this in not an excuse for Ibra. This is a theory on why our great players just disappears on the field.
But the best example by miles must be that he has made Zambo into an average player…
I agree with most of this...

as I am starting to realize that Crap is trying to form our players to his tactics, instead of forming his tactics around our players
 

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