Honestly, if social media was around when Zidane played, he would be criticized a lot harder for disappointing in two Champions League finals with Juve.
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Messi vs C.Ronaldo (46 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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You might want to reconsider that statement regarding Argentina. From:
2007 (Abbondanzieri, Ayala, G. Milito, Burdisso, Heinze, J. Zanetti, Cambiasso, Mascherano, Gago, Veron, Aimar, L. Gonzalez, Riquelme, Tevez, D. Milito, Crespo)
2011 (Romero, G. Milito, Burdisso, Garay, Rojo, Zabaleta, J. Zanetti, Cambiasso, Biglia, Gago, Mascherano, Banega, Pastore, di Maria, Tevez, Higuain, Aguero, D. Milito)
2015 (Romero, Demichelis, Otamendi, Garay, Rojo, Zabaleta, Mascherano, Biglia, Banega, Gago, Pereyra, Pastore, di Maria, Lamela, Tevez, Higuain, Aguero, Lavezzi)
to 2016 (Romero, Otamendi, Rojo, Mascherano, Biglia, Banega, Pastore, Gaitan, di Maria, Lamela, Higuain, Lavezzi, Aguero)
every time they entered Copa America as the clear favorites. In 2019 joint with Brazil. And every time they failed to win a single cup. That's epic failure on this Messi led generation (he wasn't the leader in 2007 so cutting him some slack for that one). And this is only the Copa America, WCs is another matter. Now you're right still, but regarding Portugal. They're never the favorite and have atleast 3-4 stronger teams (being generous here) to deal with on each EURO and WC. That they won one is quite impressive
also you can't compare the teams one vs another, but rather relative to the competition they faced.
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I wouldn't say they were star studded in 2002. 2006 was imo, it was considered a dream team before the tournament started, and it failed.
2007 (Abbondanzieri, Ayala, G. Milito, Burdisso, Heinze, J. Zanetti, Cambiasso, Mascherano, Gago, Veron, Aimar, L. Gonzalez, Riquelme, Tevez, D. Milito, Crespo)
2011 (Romero, G. Milito, Burdisso, Garay, Rojo, Zabaleta, J. Zanetti, Cambiasso, Biglia, Gago, Mascherano, Banega, Pastore, di Maria, Tevez, Higuain, Aguero, D. Milito)
2015 (Romero, Demichelis, Otamendi, Garay, Rojo, Zabaleta, Mascherano, Biglia, Banega, Gago, Pereyra, Pastore, di Maria, Lamela, Tevez, Higuain, Aguero, Lavezzi)
to 2016 (Romero, Otamendi, Rojo, Mascherano, Biglia, Banega, Pastore, Gaitan, di Maria, Lamela, Higuain, Lavezzi, Aguero)
every time they entered Copa America as the clear favorites. In 2019 joint with Brazil. And every time they failed to win a single cup. That's epic failure on this Messi led generation (he wasn't the leader in 2007 so cutting him some slack for that one). And this is only the Copa America, WCs is another matter. Now you're right still, but regarding Portugal. They're never the favorite and have atleast 3-4 stronger teams (being generous here) to deal with on each EURO and WC. That they won one is quite impressive
also you can't compare the teams one vs another, but rather relative to the competition they faced.
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Single hadedly? 
Ok he was their best player but it wasnt single handed.
Italy 94 (Baggio) and France 06 would be single handed (Zidane).
Brasil 02 was anything but single handed in fact it was a star-studded TEAM handed.
Ok he was their best player but it wasnt single handed.
Italy 94 (Baggio) and France 06 would be single handed (Zidane).
Brasil 02 was anything but single handed in fact it was a star-studded TEAM handed.
Calma. We all know that Messi will win his first Copa America in 2021, with a team lead by Dybala and De Paul.
In all seriousness, I agree that Messi’s Copa America career has been a disappointment.
That said, I do not blame him for not winning a World Cup, because Argentina never had the best team in any World Cup he competed in.
Spain 2010, Germany 2014 and France 2018 were all clearly better teams with better players than the Argentina side of those iterations.
Brazil 2002 was the best team in the world.
In all seriousness, I agree that Messi’s Copa America career has been a disappointment.
That said, I do not blame him for not winning a World Cup, because Argentina never had the best team in any World Cup he competed in.
Spain 2010, Germany 2014 and France 2018 were all clearly better teams with better players than the Argentina side of those iterations.
Brazil 2002 was the best team in the world.
They were eliminated in 2010 by Germany though, a Germany that was far from favorites on paper and before the tournament started. But its not just being eliminated or not, you have to show up, which Messi rarely does.
If you remember in 2002, France were the favorites. You could also argue for Italy on paper. Brazil had the best attack, and amazing wingbacks. The rest of the team though...
If you remember in 2002, France were the favorites. You could also argue for Italy on paper. Brazil had the best attack, and amazing wingbacks. The rest of the team though...
Brazil also had Lucio, Edmilson and Gilberto Silva who were all excellent players.
France lost their best player (Zidane) due to injury before the tournament even began.
Brazil was the best team of 2002 without a doubt.
But this all ties back to my original point. R9 definitely has had a better World Cup career than Messi, but he’s also played for clearly better teams. Messi has had a far better Champions League career than R9, by playing for better teams. Although R9 played for a stacked Galactico side and was unable to make the final with them.
France lost their best player (Zidane) due to injury before the tournament even began.
Brazil was the best team of 2002 without a doubt.
But this all ties back to my original point. R9 definitely has had a better World Cup career than Messi, but he’s also played for clearly better teams. Messi has had a far better Champions League career than R9, by playing for better teams. Although R9 played for a stacked Galactico side and was unable to make the final with them.
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I would argue he wasn’t even outright their best player. Rivaldo was absolutely instrumental for them in attack and orchestrated most of their play. Just a shame about his antics and play acting that tournament. Ronaldo in 2002 for Brazil was essentially a poacher, playing a role similar to what Klose was playing for Germany at the following WCs. He was absolute pivotal with his goals but he needed a lot of service to be effective which he wouldn’t have got with a lesser side.
Players beat by dribble (opta)
Messi WC10 34 dribbles (5 games), 6.80
Messi CA11 32 dribbles (4 games), 8.00
Messi WC14 46 dribbles (7 games), 6.57
Messi CA15 43 dribbles (6 games), 7.17
Messi total 155 dribbles (22 games), 7.05 players beaten per game
Ronaldo WC98 16 dribbles (7 games), 2.29 players beaten per game
Messi at his peak dribbled at 3 times the rate of Ronaldo.
(and this was Ronaldo before his knee injuries)
Better skill my ass
Messi WC10 34 dribbles (5 games), 6.80
Messi CA11 32 dribbles (4 games), 8.00
Messi WC14 46 dribbles (7 games), 6.57
Messi CA15 43 dribbles (6 games), 7.17
Messi total 155 dribbles (22 games), 7.05 players beaten per game
Ronaldo WC98 16 dribbles (7 games), 2.29 players beaten per game
Messi at his peak dribbled at 3 times the rate of Ronaldo.
(and this was Ronaldo before his knee injuries)
Better skill my ass
Quality of defending in the 1990s >>>>>>>>>>>>>quality of this horseshit today
Not to mention fouls are ALOT more strict.
I've seen Nesta beeing torn inside out by Ronaldo on high profile games.
Same Nesta aged 37 marked Messi, in his peak performance years, out of the game with comfortable ease. And that barcelona side was heaps superior to milan
Explain my why every defender who was worldclass that played both players, claims Ronaldo was so much better ?
Name me one defender, who was worldclass when facing Ronaldo and Messi in their respective primes, who says Messi was better ? I'll wait
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Oh fuck nearly forgot about that
That team was so stacked as fuck. But left the essentials at home
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Those where all the fat ronaldo days. Still absurd talent, but disgustingly lazy and slow. I barely rate those. 2002 Brazil was a very good team. Belgium nearly kicked them out by the way, so not that good :tongue:
R9 scored alot of goals in that 2002wc but other players in that team where better
At Madrid, some flashes of skill, and inconsistancy.
My past statements against brazillians, originate from my incredibly disappointment of both Ronaldo and Ronaldinho beeing disgustingly lazy, having short peak careers, while they were talented out of this world.
One too buzy eating and not training, the other buzy with dancing and putting his dick in every skirt.
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Here’s teenage Messi effortlessly dribbling past Cannavaro and Roberto Carlos:
Anyway, let’s think about this logically:
Do you really think that football suddenly stopped producing great defenders after the 90s? Or is nostalgia blinding you and making you believe that all the players of 25 years ago are so much better than the players of today?
In 1995 the world population was 5.7 billion, it is 7.8 billion today. Logic dictates that there is a bigger pool of talent playing today than there was in the previous era. That’s without mentioning the advancement in sports science.
Anyway, this whole “the defenders in the 90s are way better than the defenders of today” is just a shitty excuse to explain why prime Messi dribbled at triple the rate prime Ronaldo did.
Messi is by far the most skilled dribbler of my lifetime (Maradona was before my time). No one else even comes close to be honest.
Anyway, let’s think about this logically:
Do you really think that football suddenly stopped producing great defenders after the 90s? Or is nostalgia blinding you and making you believe that all the players of 25 years ago are so much better than the players of today?
In 1995 the world population was 5.7 billion, it is 7.8 billion today. Logic dictates that there is a bigger pool of talent playing today than there was in the previous era. That’s without mentioning the advancement in sports science.
Anyway, this whole “the defenders in the 90s are way better than the defenders of today” is just a shitty excuse to explain why prime Messi dribbled at triple the rate prime Ronaldo did.
Messi is by far the most skilled dribbler of my lifetime (Maradona was before my time). No one else even comes close to be honest.
Ah yes, 34 y/o Roberto Carlos in his last, past it season. And 34 y/o Cannavaro, who notoriously struggled at real against quick opponents in an open formation
Denying the defensive decline. In the 90ties, one could easily name 15 incredible defenders (based on defensive skill) just like that. In the early to mid 00's the decline started
first the fullbacks, later the centrebacks. Prices of centrebacks also notoriously started to rise.
The easyest way to picture it, is tactical evolution. Today the absolute shit level of defending, is coped by the modern pressing style. Looking in different styles to unsettle opponents before they can make plays.
Sitting deep for almost every team isnt a valid tactic anymore. You just dont have the quality of defending anymore.
Many italian coaches complain about it.
But you beeing too young for this, i understand your reaction. Its wrong offcourse, but understandable
Denying the defensive decline. In the 90ties, one could easily name 15 incredible defenders (based on defensive skill) just like that. In the early to mid 00's the decline started
first the fullbacks, later the centrebacks. Prices of centrebacks also notoriously started to rise.
The easyest way to picture it, is tactical evolution. Today the absolute shit level of defending, is coped by the modern pressing style. Looking in different styles to unsettle opponents before they can make plays.
Sitting deep for almost every team isnt a valid tactic anymore. You just dont have the quality of defending anymore.
Many italian coaches complain about it.
But you beeing too young for this, i understand your reaction. Its wrong offcourse, but understandable
The reason why sitting deep doesn’t work anymore is not because defenders are terrible, it’s because attacking play has become a lot more sophisticated and drilled.
Attacking play in the 90s for most teams was very basic. Hoof the ball up to the big man up top and have him hold it for the smaller quicker guy (second striker). Attacking play these days is much better.
Here’s the full game between France and Italy at Euro 2000 (I cannot find Henry’s individual highlights anymore).
A young Thierry Henry runs Nesta, Maldini and Cannavaro ragged.
Attacking play in the 90s for most teams was very basic. Hoof the ball up to the big man up top and have him hold it for the smaller quicker guy (second striker). Attacking play these days is much better.
Here’s the full game between France and Italy at Euro 2000 (I cannot find Henry’s individual highlights anymore).
A young Thierry Henry runs Nesta, Maldini and Cannavaro ragged.