Agnelli likes yes man which Allegri did not want to become I am not surprised that we have not gone ahead into hiring Allegri
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Massimiliano Allegri (292 Viewers)
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Hey it’s not my policy
I’m just interpreting what I’ve observed for the past 14 seasons
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You must be blocking June 2019 from your mind when people were trying to prove that Sarri was a superior coach to max by xG xA and other directionless metrics
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Im pretty sure this is as said sometime circa june 2019 when people wanted more entertaining football over winning
I’m just interpreting what I’ve observed for the past 14 seasons
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You must be blocking June 2019 from your mind when people were trying to prove that Sarri was a superior coach to max by xG xA and other directionless metrics
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Im pretty sure this is as said sometime circa june 2019 when people wanted more entertaining football over winning
I agree they have the better players and likely almost always will. The two Spanish teams typically have better players than anyone else including Bayern & Liverpool but sometimes these teams are able to outperform them despite not having GOATs. For example, we had better players (including a GOAT) against Lyon & Ajax but they outperformed us on the night. We almost crashed out to Spurs before too.
My point is that winning it with Juve is more challenging than with Madrid, Barca, Bayern or even Liverpool, and thats partly due to quality on paper, and coaching ability but not entirely because of it.
There is a mental component that we struggle with more than other historically big clubs. You see PSG and City experience this too to some extent despite having insane squads. Honestly huge kudos to Allegri for almost breaking this barrier twice.
My point is that winning it with Juve is more challenging than with Madrid, Barca, Bayern or even Liverpool, and thats partly due to quality on paper, and coaching ability but not entirely because of it.
There is a mental component that we struggle with more than other historically big clubs. You see PSG and City experience this too to some extent despite having insane squads. Honestly huge kudos to Allegri for almost breaking this barrier twice.
Thats a strawman it was not about losing the finals.
I was definitely for Allegri's departure because we were on the decline. The football became unwatchable and results quickly followed too.
We just did a very poor job replacing him and hit much lower lows than back then.
I wouldnt mind a new cycle with a new core under Allegri, but would absolutely prefer to start the new cycle with a different top level coach like Zizou or Klopp. Someone who is gauranteed top level. No Gasperini, Inzaghi, Sarri types. Better go back to Conte or Allegri if these are the options.
I was definitely for Allegri's departure because we were on the decline. The football became unwatchable and results quickly followed too.
We just did a very poor job replacing him and hit much lower lows than back then.
I wouldnt mind a new cycle with a new core under Allegri, but would absolutely prefer to start the new cycle with a different top level coach like Zizou or Klopp. Someone who is gauranteed top level. No Gasperini, Inzaghi, Sarri types. Better go back to Conte or Allegri if these are the options.
We declined when Ronaldo came. The management entirely ignored the aging core of the team, and players declining in summer 2018 and left Allegri with an old, tired, burnt out squad.
Our decline had very little to do with Max and everything to do with management fucking up the Ronaldo mercato. And even the one prior. It’s a minor miracle Max had us on 90 pts, and CL quarters past a stronger Atletico side that year, but the youth and athleticism of Ajax was too much for our old team with as many injury problems as it had.
And before you and others bring up revisionist history about post-Cardiff, no, we weren’t in decline 2017-18, nor were we unwatchable. We scored the most goals of the Allegri era that season, 95 points, 86 goals in the league, had a crazy +62 goal differential, smashed Milan 4-0 in Coppa final, and smashed Madrid in CL Qf return leg at the Bernabeu, only getting knocked out on an injury time 50/50 penalty call. That team was damn great and dominant, and Max’s tactics were dead on against Spurs in knocking them out. So perfect that Klopp literally copied them to a T in the CL final the next season to beat Spurs. And aside from Dybala red card and absurd Buffon-Chiellini howler in first leg we likely go through against Madrid. That season was another CL finals/winner worthy team with Max’s tactics.
It was only 2018-19 that we really fell apart, Khedira and Matuidi hitting sharp decline with age, Pjanic and Dybala sucking ass, and Mandzukic burnt out.
Our decline had very little to do with Max and everything to do with management fucking up the Ronaldo mercato. And even the one prior. It’s a minor miracle Max had us on 90 pts, and CL quarters past a stronger Atletico side that year, but the youth and athleticism of Ajax was too much for our old team with as many injury problems as it had.
And before you and others bring up revisionist history about post-Cardiff, no, we weren’t in decline 2017-18, nor were we unwatchable. We scored the most goals of the Allegri era that season, 95 points, 86 goals in the league, had a crazy +62 goal differential, smashed Milan 4-0 in Coppa final, and smashed Madrid in CL Qf return leg at the Bernabeu, only getting knocked out on an injury time 50/50 penalty call. That team was damn great and dominant, and Max’s tactics were dead on against Spurs in knocking them out. So perfect that Klopp literally copied them to a T in the CL final the next season to beat Spurs. And aside from Dybala red card and absurd Buffon-Chiellini howler in first leg we likely go through against Madrid. That season was another CL finals/winner worthy team with Max’s tactics.
It was only 2018-19 that we really fell apart, Khedira and Matuidi hitting sharp decline with age, Pjanic and Dybala sucking ass, and Mandzukic burnt out.
Not revisionist, we were having the endless "Go support Barcelona if you want dominant football" arguments back then over and over again as the season was unfolding not in hindsight.
You can try to look for specific howlers and ref decisions as an excuse but the team was unwatchable, we barely scrapped through spurs and the performance in the madrid second leg was the only bright spark of the season and came off the back of a horrible smashing in the first leg. Half the forum was already saying that we are in decline and need a change. You never agreed with these views but they were there and for good reason. If memory serves me right your argument back then wasn't that Juve played dominant attacking football or are having a great season, you were saying that its just not the Juventus way and that it could be worse. In that sense you were proved right, this was as good as we would be.
On paper these mercatos were good. Not perfect but mercatos rarely are. You are using hindsight now to judge the players who didnt deliver or rapidly declined.
The Klopp copying Juve's tactic to beat Spurs comment is really bizarre. Unless you have a direct quote from Klopp saying he copied Allegri I find it incredibly hard to believe. Liverpool are no strangers to Spurs and rarely have trouble beating them. They were clear favorites going into the final and can find a 100 teams that beat Spurs. They were already levels above them in the League and have been ever since.
You can try to look for specific howlers and ref decisions as an excuse but the team was unwatchable, we barely scrapped through spurs and the performance in the madrid second leg was the only bright spark of the season and came off the back of a horrible smashing in the first leg. Half the forum was already saying that we are in decline and need a change. You never agreed with these views but they were there and for good reason. If memory serves me right your argument back then wasn't that Juve played dominant attacking football or are having a great season, you were saying that its just not the Juventus way and that it could be worse. In that sense you were proved right, this was as good as we would be.
On paper these mercatos were good. Not perfect but mercatos rarely are. You are using hindsight now to judge the players who didnt deliver or rapidly declined.
The Klopp copying Juve's tactic to beat Spurs comment is really bizarre. Unless you have a direct quote from Klopp saying he copied Allegri I find it incredibly hard to believe. Liverpool are no strangers to Spurs and rarely have trouble beating them. They were clear favorites going into the final and can find a 100 teams that beat Spurs. They were already levels above them in the League and have been ever since.
Long post alert! Decline is not something that you will see overnight, as these players we had were all top quality, and even if they lose a step they are still quite good. Decline comes from lack of planning, not addressing the teams needs, not giving the coach the option to play what hes best at. keeping players forever is never the answer, but also not replacing them properly will make you lose a step.
We hired Allegri in 2014. He was handed a team that was set up by Conte. The defense was the same for 3 years, the midfield as well. Then in 2013 they finally added that ace up front in Tevez. So now you have a great team in all areas and a coach that knows how to use it. Max always said his preferred formation was 4-3 and then something (whether its a 1-2 or 3, depends on tactics and personel), and he found a winning formula with that team because he had players that can execute this philosophy. Tight defense, technical and physical midfield, flair and quickness up front. A team that can defend deep, press high, play possession football, counter attack, just versatile, great and complete.
Then the 1st problems, summer 2015. On paper it looks like a great mercato and we got great results out of it, but with what i said above in mind, not so much. We lost Tevez, we lost Vidal, we lost Pirlo. Now they did a great job at replacing Pirlo by simply making Marchisio the DM and making a great signing in Khedira (the renewal later wasnt so much great), allowing Max to keep his 4-3 part of the team in tact. But upfront we did some mess, instead of replacing the players we lost with similar characteristics, or atleast what the coach needs. Mandzu was a great pick up as well, you replace some of that Vidal and Tevez pressing and grinta with him. But where is the AM instead of Vidal? Ok, you can say we got Cuads, so we could just play 433. But then we sold Coman, and never signed a starting LW. We signed Dybala for 40M, who is a SS (a right sided one, same side as Cuads), we spent 18M on another CF in Zaza. Then we lowkey did the same thing with Llorente as with Tevez, instead of selling to England for money we sent him for free to Spain because he was homesick (just a year later he did move to England and i dont think he played in Spain since, so much for that. Same as Tevez moving to China for ridiculous money, which should have been from us). This is all us losing money for no fucking reason, while not improving at all. This will sound controversial but we never should have gotten Dybala, we had a team built for 433 once Cuads was there, we just needed a LW. Alexis Sanchez is what we needed, perfect Tevez heir and partner for Mandzu, with Cuads in the other side. Or Di Maria. Or someone else, but in that mould. Now THAT is how you replace the atributes you lost, and give the coach the team to play what he wants. Instead we got what we got, forcing Max to adapt and go 352 (with that team, the only and best option). Not what he wanted, not what hes best at, but he made it work.
2016 we lose Pogba. Marchisio is pretty much done and we replace with Pjanic, which is good. We sign Barzagli replacement in Benatia, again great. Dani Alves is a fantastic pick up. But we never replaced Pogba, as we sign a CF with his money. And now Max cant even use his 4-3 part of his prefered formation anymore because he lacks a starting CM. So he again adapts, makes changes to the formation allowing him to field the best players. It becomes a 4-2-3-1, and he still makes it work again.
2017 we get D. Costa and Berna, on paper good pickups. But the reality shows that we have only 2 starting caliber CMs (one of which is slowly on decline), and 4 starting caliber attackers. So again we focus on what is not needed. Matuidi is a good signing in terms of quality, but in terms of profile we needed something else. Or another CM in addition to him. Dani Alves leaves, we get De Sciglio. Solid backup and replacement for on-his-last-legs-Licht, but we lost a starter who we didnt replace. Bonucci left and again no replacement (Benatia was there but he was supposed to succeed Barza, who was done also by then). And at this point the decline was in full swing, because even if we were good on paper and had a great coach who made it work, we kept neglecting what was needed to be addressed and what our coach excells at, so we were in deep shit even if results showed otherwise. Max fooled poor Ronaldo as well, guy thought we are a great team and that he will have a great time winning the league every year comfortably, and compete for CL. In reality it was a team that needed to be rebuilt, handed to a guy that doesent know how to rebuild it.
We hired Allegri in 2014. He was handed a team that was set up by Conte. The defense was the same for 3 years, the midfield as well. Then in 2013 they finally added that ace up front in Tevez. So now you have a great team in all areas and a coach that knows how to use it. Max always said his preferred formation was 4-3 and then something (whether its a 1-2 or 3, depends on tactics and personel), and he found a winning formula with that team because he had players that can execute this philosophy. Tight defense, technical and physical midfield, flair and quickness up front. A team that can defend deep, press high, play possession football, counter attack, just versatile, great and complete.
Then the 1st problems, summer 2015. On paper it looks like a great mercato and we got great results out of it, but with what i said above in mind, not so much. We lost Tevez, we lost Vidal, we lost Pirlo. Now they did a great job at replacing Pirlo by simply making Marchisio the DM and making a great signing in Khedira (the renewal later wasnt so much great), allowing Max to keep his 4-3 part of the team in tact. But upfront we did some mess, instead of replacing the players we lost with similar characteristics, or atleast what the coach needs. Mandzu was a great pick up as well, you replace some of that Vidal and Tevez pressing and grinta with him. But where is the AM instead of Vidal? Ok, you can say we got Cuads, so we could just play 433. But then we sold Coman, and never signed a starting LW. We signed Dybala for 40M, who is a SS (a right sided one, same side as Cuads), we spent 18M on another CF in Zaza. Then we lowkey did the same thing with Llorente as with Tevez, instead of selling to England for money we sent him for free to Spain because he was homesick (just a year later he did move to England and i dont think he played in Spain since, so much for that. Same as Tevez moving to China for ridiculous money, which should have been from us). This is all us losing money for no fucking reason, while not improving at all. This will sound controversial but we never should have gotten Dybala, we had a team built for 433 once Cuads was there, we just needed a LW. Alexis Sanchez is what we needed, perfect Tevez heir and partner for Mandzu, with Cuads in the other side. Or Di Maria. Or someone else, but in that mould. Now THAT is how you replace the atributes you lost, and give the coach the team to play what he wants. Instead we got what we got, forcing Max to adapt and go 352 (with that team, the only and best option). Not what he wanted, not what hes best at, but he made it work.
2016 we lose Pogba. Marchisio is pretty much done and we replace with Pjanic, which is good. We sign Barzagli replacement in Benatia, again great. Dani Alves is a fantastic pick up. But we never replaced Pogba, as we sign a CF with his money. And now Max cant even use his 4-3 part of his prefered formation anymore because he lacks a starting CM. So he again adapts, makes changes to the formation allowing him to field the best players. It becomes a 4-2-3-1, and he still makes it work again.
2017 we get D. Costa and Berna, on paper good pickups. But the reality shows that we have only 2 starting caliber CMs (one of which is slowly on decline), and 4 starting caliber attackers. So again we focus on what is not needed. Matuidi is a good signing in terms of quality, but in terms of profile we needed something else. Or another CM in addition to him. Dani Alves leaves, we get De Sciglio. Solid backup and replacement for on-his-last-legs-Licht, but we lost a starter who we didnt replace. Bonucci left and again no replacement (Benatia was there but he was supposed to succeed Barza, who was done also by then). And at this point the decline was in full swing, because even if we were good on paper and had a great coach who made it work, we kept neglecting what was needed to be addressed and what our coach excells at, so we were in deep shit even if results showed otherwise. Max fooled poor Ronaldo as well, guy thought we are a great team and that he will have a great time winning the league every year comfortably, and compete for CL. In reality it was a team that needed to be rebuilt, handed to a guy that doesent know how to rebuild it.
Dude. You really weren’t paying attention at all. You and a couple other negative nancies bitched all season. It wasn’t a widespread thing. Half the forum lol. We scored 86 goals in the league. We put 4 past Spurs in the two legs. And easily could have put 8-10 goals with the chances we had, hitting the woodwork, the missed penalty, uncalled clear penalty, etc. We buried 3 at the Bernabeu. We smashed Milan 4-0 in the final of Coppa.
You can talk out your ass all you want, but you and your small little group were just plain wrong. And that season it was a small little group for very good reason. The statistics back me up, and so did most of the forum. That was a dominant season.
My argument the next season was what you’re saying above. Yes. And that 2018-19 season was awful after November. Full of terrible performances.
But I’ve been stating the fact that in 2017-18 we played some of our most dominant football forever, and everything backs that up. We had some poor games, or even just periods of games, like we have every year, but on the whole we crushed almost everyone. 95 points, 86 goals - 24 conceded. Our average margin of victory was more than 2 goals in the league and Coppa. Etc etc. I’m not going to go over it again. If you are arguing we were unwatchable in 2017-18 you were just plain blind and it goes directly in the face of what actually occurred.
Yes, Klopp set aside his gegenpress almost entirely against Spurs and let them dominate possession and half-chances, just like Max did. Hit them on the counter exclusively in that final. He played them in a way quite different from what he’d done in the league. Spurs had 61% possession, made double the passes, had 8 shots on target to 3 by Liverpool and the lions share of chances in the game. I’m not saying Klopp literally studied Allegri’s game plan, but that match was one of the more impressive things I’ve seen from him because he finally adapted his tactics to something that works perfectly against a team like Spurs. Which ended up being almost a carbon copy of our matches against them one year prior. Hit them on the counter, be clinical with the best chances, and let them run themselves into the ground while you stay organized at the back allowing them to have their half-chances but not much else.
You’re welcome to make shit up, but I’d rather not discuss this with you. Because the shit you write about that season is pure nonsense. 95 point season, domestic double, +62 goal differential, ducking out of CL in QFs with heads held high on a last second 50/50 penalty to eventual winners... and you think we had one single bright spark in the entire season? That’s beyond ludicrous. It’s just plain stupid.
You can talk out your ass all you want, but you and your small little group were just plain wrong. And that season it was a small little group for very good reason. The statistics back me up, and so did most of the forum. That was a dominant season.
My argument the next season was what you’re saying above. Yes. And that 2018-19 season was awful after November. Full of terrible performances.
But I’ve been stating the fact that in 2017-18 we played some of our most dominant football forever, and everything backs that up. We had some poor games, or even just periods of games, like we have every year, but on the whole we crushed almost everyone. 95 points, 86 goals - 24 conceded. Our average margin of victory was more than 2 goals in the league and Coppa. Etc etc. I’m not going to go over it again. If you are arguing we were unwatchable in 2017-18 you were just plain blind and it goes directly in the face of what actually occurred.
Yes, Klopp set aside his gegenpress almost entirely against Spurs and let them dominate possession and half-chances, just like Max did. Hit them on the counter exclusively in that final. He played them in a way quite different from what he’d done in the league. Spurs had 61% possession, made double the passes, had 8 shots on target to 3 by Liverpool and the lions share of chances in the game. I’m not saying Klopp literally studied Allegri’s game plan, but that match was one of the more impressive things I’ve seen from him because he finally adapted his tactics to something that works perfectly against a team like Spurs. Which ended up being almost a carbon copy of our matches against them one year prior. Hit them on the counter, be clinical with the best chances, and let them run themselves into the ground while you stay organized at the back allowing them to have their half-chances but not much else.
You’re welcome to make shit up, but I’d rather not discuss this with you. Because the shit you write about that season is pure nonsense. 95 point season, domestic double, +62 goal differential, ducking out of CL in QFs with heads held high on a last second 50/50 penalty to eventual winners... and you think we had one single bright spark in the entire season? That’s beyond ludicrous. It’s just plain stupid.
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We actually needed to do the kind of Buffon, Thuram, Nedved style of transfer instead of CR7 transfer
I don't emphasize this notion like we must buy GK, RB, and LW, but we needed to put 3 top players/youngsters with bright prospect to strengthen and freshen the squad based on what position we needed the most instead of go for 1 top star
I will say we go De Ligt, Aouar, and Haaland for that years instead of CR7 (this will be more money in transfer fee but lower in salary)
These 3 players will give us an edge and will become 75M+ players in 4 years
I don't emphasize this notion like we must buy GK, RB, and LW, but we needed to put 3 top players/youngsters with bright prospect to strengthen and freshen the squad based on what position we needed the most instead of go for 1 top star
I will say we go De Ligt, Aouar, and Haaland for that years instead of CR7 (this will be more money in transfer fee but lower in salary)
These 3 players will give us an edge and will become 75M+ players in 4 years
Max has earned it - I wish him nothing but the best @ Real (unless we meet in the CL, which isn't likely given the direction we're heading in).
If not Max, it should be Zizou. If not Zizou, then hire someone with a vision. The coach doesn't have to be Italian - very qualified coaches exist beyond the peninsula. In fact, we should be looking to revamp the entire management structure, before we start looking at rebuilding the squad - keeping Tootsie and Nedved is beyond criminal at this point.
If not Max, it should be Zizou. If not Zizou, then hire someone with a vision. The coach doesn't have to be Italian - very qualified coaches exist beyond the peninsula. In fact, we should be looking to revamp the entire management structure, before we start looking at rebuilding the squad - keeping Tootsie and Nedved is beyond criminal at this point.
