Massimiliano Allegri (222 Viewers)

[Vlad]

I value game to game tactics more if the team already has its standard game plan and has a never-say-die winning mentality. Once those are in place then surely its better to have Allegri.

Basically I like Conte's ability to find the standard formation that fits the squad and his ability to instill a winning spirit in the team. He is great to have at the beginning and growth stage of a cycle. Allegri is better at taking over that very good team and tweaking it. He is great to have at the maturity stage of a cycle.



Not inferior at all. Milan had a much better squad and didnt have to integrate 7 new players into the starting 11. No one thought Juve had a chance.. not even bookies.

LOL

He integrated 6-8 new players this term and has managed to overcome huge deficit. This entirely refutes the arguments of people around here that claimed that Max can't build a team, but can only continue the work of others and reap the benefits afterwards.

what? Conte was a disgrace in europe.

going out against benfica when we could have won the cup in our own stadium is still the most hilarious thing he has done...this and the away game against the turks.

The most notable difference in personnel between Conte's 2014 Juve and Allegri's 2015 one were Evra and Morata. Is that really enough to go from group elimination to CL final, or is there something more to it? Like Max being a tactical wizard and therefore getting deserved credit.

Did he ever get due credit for winning the Scudetto with Milan (first one after 7 years) while competing with previously treble winning Inter side? Also amazing feat. Further more, reaching 3rd place with the likes of Acerbi and Traore is nothing short of heroic.

We finished 7th the year before. What we had over Milan was that we were harder workers, had more hunger and were more dynamic. We had good new additions but Milan was still a step above us, we punched above our weight. Juventus winning the scudetto before the season started wasn't even expected by the fanbase or the neutrals, we barely hoped to make it in CL.

Licht, Pirlo, Vucinic and Vidal played no small part in it. Milan had old decaying team that heavily relied on Ibra's moments of ingenuity. Their midfield and defense were mediocre at best.

Juventus winning the scudetto before the season started wasn't even expected by the fanbase

'tis not my issue people always think the worst of our chances. I fully expected us to win the title that year because the team was THAT strong as shown in subsequent seasons, when we dominated the league with minor tweaks.
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Exactly.

One lottery snow storm game in Madrid going the wrong way and Allegri would have failed too last year.

Could have, but we need to leave could haves, would haves and should haves out of this and stop trying to take away from his work only to give excuse for failure of others.

 

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[DAiDEViL]

You could almost say we got husted

bet he is proud of himself. he should be.
after all it isn't easy to start a clan war on a peaceful place like tuz.

 

[Hist]

LOL

He integrated 6-8 new players this term and has managed to overcome huge deficit. Further more, reaching 3rd place with the likes of Acerbi and Traore is nothing short of heroic.

The most notable difference in personnel between Conte's 2014 Juve and Allegri's 2015 one were Evra and Morata. Is that really enough to go from group elimination to CL final, or is there something more to it? Like Max being a tactical wizard and therefore getting deserved credit.

Lets try to organize this discussion a bit more because there are so many points for and against each coach and a lot of seasons to choose from. Maybe this way we can identify where we agree and where we disagree and why.

How do you evaluate 2011/12 where this was Conte's first season and Allegri was at Milan with Ibra? Lets focus on this talking point before moving to something else. I'll try to organize it as much as I can.

I think Conte comes out clearly on top in that season.

1) Going into the season, Milan were reigning champions while Juve were aiming for a top 3 finish at best. Milan had a winning mentality while Juve completely lacked character. They were touted as the clear favorites for the title we werent even in contention. This was the opinion of bookies as well as fans on both sides.

2) Milan already had a standard formation to follow while we did not. They had their tactical setup in place and won using it, while we had no idea how we were going to play. This stability makes a lot of difference as we saw this current season when Allegri was experimenting. Our 3-5-2 became standard later in the season in 2011/12 and Conte adopted this formation because our squad had several clear weaknesses and one clear point of strength. Which brings me the next point.

3) The difference in squad quality and squad depth. We had several weaknesses in our squad.

Our first weakness was our defense both on paper and in reality. Bonucci in particular, was very shaky in a 2 man defense. He was nowhere near the beast that we know now. We also had no first team quality players for the left-back position. 3 man defense gave bonucci the necessary protection and allowed asamoah to fill the LWB position later on when the 3-5-2 became standard. Milan shared that weakness with us. They were more secure in CB with Silva and Nesta but they had to rely on Zambrotta and Abate for the full back positions. So here we may be equals or at best have a slight advantage.

Our second obvious weakness was in attack. We simply had no good strikers at all. I don't think I have to elaborate on that because its obvious. Milan on the other hand had Ibra, Cassano and Robinho in attack. The gulf in quality is supreme.

Our third obvious weakness was depth in midfield and in defense. In midfield we had 3 great starters in Marchisio, Pirlo and Vidal but the bench was empty. One injury and we go into padoin territory. Milan on the other hand did have depth. When Seedorf, Van Bommel, Gattusso and Boetang needed a rest, they could call on Nocerino, Muntari, Flamini, Ambrosini, and Aquilani. They had a big squad and even if these players were old there is still many of them and each of them betters Padoin. They thus had superior depth in midfield.

In defense we had the same problem. We had one good sub in Cacares thats it otherwise its time from Grosso. Caceras was supposed to cover for Licht at RWB and for the 3 starting CBs. We had no proper sub for Asamoah either. We thus had a severe shortage in good depth players. Like us, Milan had one good sub in Mexes but then fall back on Yepes, Bonera and antonini. They again have superior depth in defense by quantity.

Our obvious point of strength, on the other hand, was the central midfield in terms of starting 11. Marchisio, Vidal and Pirlo (thanks to Allegri and Galliani) are much better than anything Milan had by a distance.

So to summarize this point, in terms of starting 11, they had the much better attack and an equal almost equal defense. We had a much better midfield but even that is largely thanks to their (Galliani and Allegri) mistake of seeing Pirlo as surplus to requirements or finished. In terms of squad as a whole, they had a giant squad with a lot of adequate depth players while we had no resources on the bench at all.


3) We did not just win the league, we won it in fucking style. We never lost a single game. That never say die attitude was in our squad but not in Milan's throughout the season. Conte's superior motivational skills becomes clear. Even if you think they did not have a better squad on paper, if you think both squads were equal on balance, Conte actually won and in incredible style while Allegri lost. Conte transformed Juve into a force, Allegri did nothing similar at Milan.

4) Post-season public perception confirms this. Amongst our fans and neutrals, we were praising Conte to the sky while Allegri was getting dissed for losing the title. Milan fans started to ask for Allegri's head, everyone saw the win as us causing a major upset and the fact that it was done undefeated even adds to it.

Thats my evaluation of that season. There is a lot more to say about other seasons or your evaluation of both coaches in general but try to stick to this season in particular and tell me where you disagree.

 

[DAiDEViL]

a 1500 words Hist essay won't change my opinion.

best thing is you make it sound like allegri had any say who to buy/sell.
Berlu and Galliani did whatever they wanted, Max had to deal with the consequences.

 

[il brutto]

Lets try to organize this discussion a bit more because there are so many points for and against each coach and a lot of seasons to choose from. Maybe this way we can identify where we agree and where we disagree and why.

How do you evaluate 2011/12 where this was Conte's first season and Allegri was at Milan with Ibra? Lets focus on this talking point before moving to something else. I'll try to organize it as much as I can.

I think Conte comes out clearly on top in that season.

1) Going into the season, Milan were reigning champions while Juve were aiming for a top 3 finish at best. Milan had a winning mentality while Juve completely lacked character. They were touted as the clear favorites for the title we werent even in contention. This was the opinion of bookies as well as fans on both sides.

2) Milan already had a standard formation to follow while we did not. They had their tactical setup in place and won using it, while we had no idea how we were going to play. This stability makes a lot of difference as we saw this current season when Allegri was experimenting. Our 3-5-2 became standard later in the season in 2011/12 and Conte adopted this formation because our squad had several clear weaknesses and one clear point of strength. Which brings me the next point.

3) The difference in squad quality and squad depth. We had several weaknesses in our squad.

Our first weakness was our defense both on paper and in reality. Bonucci in particular, was very shaky in a 2 man defense. He was nowhere near the beast that we know now. We also had no first team quality players for the left-back position. 3 man defense gave bonucci the necessary protection and allowed asamoah to fill the LWB position later on when the 3-5-2 became standard. Milan shared that weakness with us. They were more secure in CB with Silva and Nesta but they had to rely on Zambrotta and Abate for the full back positions. So here we may be equals or at best have a slight advantage.

Our second obvious weakness was in attack. We simply had no good strikers at all. I don't think I have to elaborate on that because its obvious. Milan on the other hand had Ibra, Cassano and Robinho in attack. The gulf in quality is supreme.

Our third obvious weakness was depth in midfield and in defense. In midfield we had 3 great starters in Marchisio, Pirlo and Vidal but the bench was empty. One injury and we go into padoin territory. Milan on the other hand did have depth. When Seedorf, Van Bommel, Gattusso and Boetang needed a rest, they could call on Nocerino, Muntari, Flamini, Ambrosini, and Aquilani. They had a big squad and even if these players were old there is still many of them and each of them betters Padoin. They thus had superior depth in midfield.

In defense we had the same problem. We had one good sub in Cacares thats it otherwise its time from Grosso. Caceras was supposed to cover for Licht at RWB and for the 3 starting CBs. We had no proper sub for Asamoah either. We thus had a severe shortage in good depth players. Like us, Milan had one good sub in Mexes but then fall back on Yepes, Bonera and antonini. They again have superior depth in defense by quantity.

Our obvious point of strength, on the other hand, was the central midfield in terms of starting 11. Marchisio, Vidal and Pirlo (thanks to Allegri and Galliani) are much better than anything Milan had by a distance.

So to summarize this point, in terms of starting 11, they had the much better attack and an equal almost equal defense. We had a much better midfield but even that is largely thanks to their (Galliani and Allegri) mistake of seeing Pirlo as surplus to requirements or finished. In terms of squad as a whole, they had a giant squad with a lot of adequate depth players while we had no resources on the bench at all.


3) We did not just win the league, we won it in $#@!ing style. We never lost a single game. That never say die attitude was in our squad but not in Milan's throughout the season. Conte's superior motivational skills becomes clear. Even if you think they did not have a better squad on paper, if you think both squads were equal on balance, Conte actually won and in incredible style while Allegri lost. Conte transformed Juve into a force, Allegri did nothing similar at Milan.

4) Post-season public perception confirms this. Amongst our fans and neutrals, we were praising Conte to the sky while Allegri was getting dissed for losing the title. Milan fans started to ask for Allegri's head, everyone saw the win as us causing a major upset and the fact that it was done undefeated even adds to it.

Thats my evaluation of that season. There is a lot more to say about other seasons or your evaluation of both coaches in general but try to stick to this season in particular and tell me where you disagree.

Are you on drugs?

 

[Hist]

Are you on drugs?

I can't help myself.

 

[Cerval]

'tis not my issue people always think the worst of our chances. I fully expected us to win the title that year because the team was THAT strong as shown in subsequent seasons, when we dominated the league with minor tweaks.

You lost an opportunity to make a shitload of money.

 

[DAiDEViL]

I can't help myself.

damn drugs

tell me the truth. you are on Vidal again right?

 

[il brutto]

I can't help myself.

We all have our flaws

Padoin didn't really play that much as Giaccherini was our main substitute for midfield. Also Asamoah wasn't with us that season we had the mighty De Ceglie although I think Conte utilized Chiellini as a left back when we played four at the back.

Nocerino had that crazy season and I think he started most of their matches. Emmanuelson was a constant starter as well.

 

[zizinho]

That Milan team was declining rapidly. It was the last season for most of their team but not only that, they had numerous injuries that season from their veterans and had to play mediocre players which Hist describes as depth in those games. That lost title was all on Galliani and Berlusconi who did not build on the team from previous season, not on Allegri. They had only 6 players with 2000+ minutes that season (Nocerino with most minutes played for them and Abate also in the top 6) and players like Emanuelson, Bonera, Antonini, Aquilani, Boateng, Mexes, Robinho in their top15 in minutes played. Gattuso started only 4 games,Zambrotta 10, Seedorf only 14, Nesta 16, Pato who was their top scorer with Ibra previous season only 7 games... Our team was pretty consistent all season with no injuries and minor changes through out the season. The key players like Pirlo, Buffon, Marchisio, Barzagli, Chiellini, Licht, Vidal, Vucinic, Bonucci, played and started most games which was a major advantage. So to sum it up, Conte achieved something great that season, but he also had great players at his disposal. Allegri didnt fail because he made a great but old team almost win the title but with a major disadvantage, and that was the multiple injuries he had. Conte deserves credit though, that was a great season

 

[GordoDeCentral]

the revisionism here

 

[Osman]

It will only get worse for every season. Act like 3-4 years ago is ancient history you can re-write at will.

 

[Hust]

bet he is proud of himself. he should be.
after all it isn't easy to start a clan war on a peaceful place like tuz.

Clan wars. Yeah. I guess that is my legacy.

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

the revisionism here

So Conte didnt fail in Europe?

 

[Raz]

on of them long posts

You have two nr. 3) points.

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So Conte didnt fail in Europe?

He did, plus he failed miserably as a human being which is the most important of all.

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

 

[zizinho]

Conte failed in the group stage 2013/14 and in those Benfica games. Appart from that he was a success here

 

[Scottish]

Are you on drugs?

I liked it, it was written in incredible style.

 

[Zacheryah]

Milan had a much better team.
But they played 3 competitions, and had more then 5 starters, like every striker except zlatan, out injured.
Milan lost the scudetto to juventus when Zlatan inevitably slowed down a little bit.


It was a huge feat by conte to take a bunch of pathetic ass faggot losers, and inject them with actual juventus mentality. It is a cornerstone in our post calciopoli history that we cannot but recognise. But it was Milan who lost the scudetto to us.


Quite obviously, that translates into "Allegri lost the scudetto to Conte"

 

[zizinho]

Milan had a much better team.
But they played 3 competitions, and had more then 5 starters, like every striker except zlatan, out injured.
Milan lost the scudetto to juventus when Zlatan inevitably slowed down a little bit.


It was a huge feat by conte to take a bunch of pathetic ass $#@! losers, and inject them with actual juventus mentality. It is a cornerstone in our post calciopoli history that we cannot but recognise. But it was Milan who lost the scudetto to us.


Quite obviously, that translates into "Allegri lost the scudetto to Conte"

we made a complete overhaul in the team during summer. Buffon, Manninger, Storari, Chiellini, Barzagli, Bonucci, PDC, Grosso, Sorensen, Marchisio, Pepe, Krasic, Del Piero, Quags, Toni, Matri were the only one from 10/11 that remained with Buffon, Chiellini, Barzagli, Bonucci, Marchisio, Pepe and Matri for half a season as the only starters and PDC, Quags and Del Piero the only others with significant playing time. Conte deserves credit though for making all the new puzzles click, but that team was no bunch of losers for sure