Keisuke Honda - AM - CSKA Moscow (6 Viewers)

[Red]

The midfield was successful yes. We outclassed Milan with that midfield, we were competing for the title, but because of our lack of depth we lost the title in the fourth quarter of the season, not because our midfield wasn't successful. Us not winning anything that season had nothing to do with the success or lack of success of our midfield, so that argument is invalid.

Arsenal had success against Milan because of having much, much more pace than them throughout the team. Also, Arsenal, in the San Siro, had Flamini, Fabregas, Diaby, Eboue and Hleb in midfield. All those guys work hard and all of them get involved in the play in the middle of the park.

Also, it's easier to play two in midfield in England (or it certainly was a few years ago) because more teams play two man midfields there than in Italy.

If you're playing a team with three or four in midfield and you're playing with wide men, these wide men will stretch the opposition team, and allow for more space in the middle as the opposition teams midfield will have to open up a bit to defend against the widemen. In that case, your midfield duo will not be outnumbered all the time. Think of United for example, they play a 4-4-2 quite often, sometimes employing that 4-4-2 against teams that play with three or four in midfield ala Chelsea. But they stretch those teams and force them to open up space in the middle because they have to defend against United's wide men.

When Man Utd are playing a good team, though, they very often switch to a three man midfield.

Or they will play Park narrow on one side or Rooney will play deep to try to stop them being dominated in midfield.

It's pretty rare for Man Utd to play 4-4-2 to two genuine wingers in a big game against a team that isn't just playing 4-4-2.

The main way to succeed with less men in midfield is to avoid playing in midfield, whether that involves long ball or playing the ball round the midfield using the fullbacks to get the ball to the wingers. If you do that, though, it becomes pointless playing a pure playmaker like Pirlo, because you won't be getting him the ball very much.

 

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[Nedvěd]

I agree with Red.

When we play a bigger team Nani is usually dropped for a reason, because Valencia and Park offer more defensively.

This is how we used to play against bigger teams before we had Hernandez:

Van Der Sar

Da Silva Ferdinand Vidic Evra

Carrick Fletcher Giggs

Valencia Rooney Park​

With Hernandez

Van Der Sar

Da Silva Ferdinand Vidic Evra

Carrick Giggs

Valencia Rooney Park

Hernandez​

 

[JuveJay]

Mind if I say something?

 

[Red]

Depends...

 

[JuveJay]

On whether I agree with you?

 

[Red]

Yup.

 

[j0ker]

Buffon

Licht - Bonucci - Chiellini - Ziegler

Pirlo - Lass

---------------Honda

Krasic -----Matri--Aguero
​

 

[JuveJay]

Basically you can't pigeonhole this guy into a position, he's an offensive minded midfielder who is not very fast but has a lot of vision and a wand of a left foot. He can play deep lying playmaker, off-right winger, static left winger, right or left midfielder, central midfielder, attacking midfielder, trequartista or the 'false striker' role he played for Japan in WC 2010. In my opinion he's best given a free attacking midfield role, off the forwards, or coming in off the right wing.

 

[Salvo]

So that doesn't exactly rule him out of the LW that cuts in.

 

[AOD4]

I think Honda will play as one of the 3 man midfield for a 4-3-3 formation. Not sure how else he could fit.

 

[Lapa]

Getting him sounds a bit too much.

 

[Fred]

Arsenal had success against Milan because of having much, much more pace than them throughout the team. Also, Arsenal, in the San Siro, had Flamini, Fabregas, Diaby, Eboue and Hleb in midfield. All those guys work hard and all of them get involved in the play in the middle of the park.

Also, it's easier to play two in midfield in England (or it certainly was a few years ago) because more teams play two man midfields there than in Italy.



When Man Utd are playing a good team, though, they very often switch to a three man midfield.

Or they will play Park narrow on one side or Rooney will play deep to try to stop them being dominated in midfield.

It's pretty rare for Man Utd to play 4-4-2 to two genuine wingers in a big game against a team that isn't just playing 4-4-2.

The main way to succeed with less men in midfield is to avoid playing in midfield, whether that involves long ball or playing the ball round the midfield using the fullbacks to get the ball to the wingers. If you do that, though, it becomes pointless playing a pure playmaker like Pirlo, because you won't be getting him the ball very much.

They played a 4-4-2 against Chelsea's 3 man midfield and won. Rooney does drop deep from time to time, but he plays mainly as a second striker. As for Nani being dropped that is true, Valencia tracks back and works harder than Nani, hence Nani's exclusion. So, it just proves my point, you can have a 4-4-2, and just tweak it here and there to adapt against strong teams playing with 3 or 4 men midfield. I believe it is a myth, that a two man midfield won't work against teams that play with 3 or 4 midfielders.

 

[Salvo]

See if we did do that we would save

we would have a 4-3-3 with

Lich-Chiello-Bonucci-Ziegler

---Melo--Pirlo--Honda--

Krasic------Matri--Aguero
(Pepe) (Toni/Alex) (Quag)

 

[Hust]

So that doesn't exactly rule him out of the LW that cuts in.

I don't see why not. Maybe Krasic can play LM and cut in, and Honda to the same on the right?

 

[Hust]

See if we did do that we would save

we would have a 4-3-3 with

Lich-Chiello-Bonucci-Ziegler

---Melo--Pirlo--Honda--

Krasic------Matri--Aguero
(Pepe) (Toni/Alex) (Quag)

Two questions:
1.) How much for Honda?
2.) Honda>Vidal??

 

[JuveJay]

So that doesn't exactly rule him out of the LW that cuts in.

Onto his right side? Not normal, unless he dribbles. Reading between the lines Conte would use him as he would Cerci.

 

[Fred]

Arsenal had success against Milan because of having much, much more pace than them throughout the team. Also, Arsenal, in the San Siro, had Flamini, Fabregas, Diaby, Eboue and Hleb in midfield. All those guys work hard and all of them get involved in the play in the middle of the park.

Personnel does not matter, you look at that and it looks like we played a 3 man midfield. But we didn't. Hleb played behind the lone striker, Eboue played on the right with Diaby on the left. The latter only played because of the injuries we had. Cesc and Flamini played as our midfield duo.

 

[Salvo]

Yeah I don't know.... A 4-3-3 would be far cheaper for us though. No need to spend on a LW and an SS.

 

[Salvo]

Onto his right side? Not normal, unless he dribbles. Reading between the lines Conte would use him as he would Cerci.

Which is?

 

[Fred]

Cerci plays on the right most of the time. He's the type that plays with his left foot, but likes to play right wing, because he cuts in most of the time.