Israeli-Palestinian conflict (14 Viewers)

[-=DJANGO=-]

But, but Israel is peaceful and democratic! They want to bomb Iran now(well, if the USoA vassal can't do the job alone) in the name of world peace. What good is it to have more nuclear plants or bombs? I mean Israel has a lot of them, but they are peaceful bombs. Those bombs are used just as a tool for negotiations and officially no one even admits to them. On the other hand given their numbers, if they were to be used for war there would hardly be anyone left to negotiate with. That's Peace Plan B.

At least they have their cultural and royal ally in the house of Saud.

Maybe they will share the 'gay' capital and fests between Tel Aviv and Riyadh?

 

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[Seven]

In truth you are correct. If hamas truly wanted a solution they would have used some diplomacy and serious negotiations to maybe speak to the issue. Yet sending people basically to their death to push their agenda is plain as day. They care neither for their people nor actual Palestine.

The disgrace is that sending them to the border equals sending them to their deaths. Stop acting as if the border is a cliff they send people to. They're not telling people to jump off. These people are getting murdered. The main culprit will always be the murderer. Ffs, I can't believe I even have to explain this.

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The narrative now is that Israel is the enemy while Palestine is the oppressed. It’s sad because it’s revisionist.

Lol, what? How is it revisionist?

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Its the victime role. And many Europeans buy totally into that crap.

The entire reason Israel exists is because we saw the Israelis as victims.

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THE COUNTERFEIT ARABS: THERE IS NO "HISTORIC" PALESTINE: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people; no such thing as a Palestinian history; and no Palestinian language exists. There has never been any independent, sovereign Palestinian state in all of recorded history – let alone an Arab independent state of Palestine. You will search in vain for Palestinian Arab coinage or Palestinian Arab archaeological artifacts specifically related to any Palestinian Arab king or ancient leader. But what you will find are coins, pottery, ancient scrolls, all providing conclusive, empirical and millennial evidence of Jewish civilization dotting the land known correctly as Israel – not Palestine. The present-day so-called “Palestinians” are an Arab people sharing an overwhelmingly Muslim Arab culture, ethnicity and language identical to their fellow Arabs in the Middle East and North Africa, with few if any distinctions.

Oh man.. You can't.. You just can't do that. You don't have to go very far back in history to say there are no United States. Surely you won't find "coins, pottery or ancient scrolls" talking about a shared American culture. If we're going to talk history and think of this as the only relevant factor in nation building, I am going to have to invite you and about 300 million other people to fuck off and leave the US.

Whether or not there was a kingdom of Israel in the year 0 doesn't matter. What matters is what was there in 1945. And it sure as fuck wasn't Israel.

 

[Fred]

I prefer not to get into these arguments to be honest, especially as you have two people in Bayernfan and AC that obviously don't even know what they're talking about, but this just cracked me up

The summary of my post was that Israeli government is committing crimes.

 

[Buck Fuddy]

The worst part is that at some point the rest of the World just doesn't care anymore. The entire Middle East is rapidly approaching that point. Peace in the Middle East has now become something people joke about in sitcoms.

I know I don't.

 

[Tomice]

They offered Palestinians their land? Empty offers mean nothing. The reality is they have continually been swallowing up more and more Palestinian land on a daily basis since the late 40s.

The reality is that they will continue lose land as long as they refuse to sign a deal, I'm not for it personally but ignoring the fact is just irresponsible.

And they are not empty offers, you lose a war you don't get to set the term, unless you are palestinian it seems.

But, but Israel is peaceful and democratic! They want to bomb Iran now(well, if the USoA vassal can't do the job alone) in the name of world peace. What good is it to have more nuclear plants or bombs? I mean Israel has a lot of them, but they are peaceful bombs. Those bombs are used just as a tool for negotiations and officially no one even admits to them. On the other hand given their numbers, if they were to be used for war there would hardly be anyone left to negotiate with. That's Peace Plan B.

At least they have their cultural and royal ally in the house of Saud.

Maybe they will share the 'gay' capital and fests between Tel Aviv and Riyadh?

Look who joined , missed your rants bud

The disgrace is that sending them to the border equals sending them to their deaths. Stop acting as if the border is a cliff they send people to. They're not telling people to jump off. These people are getting murdered. The main culprit will always be the murderer. Ffs, I can't believe I even have to explain this.

If sending them to the border equals death there would have been thousands of dead on the 15th, not 62 which 50 of them were Hamas members. There is also a distinction between standing on the border waving flags and trying to breach a sovereign country border, a distinction you don't care to make.

Oh and paying them to die or get shot isn't a disgrace? Didn't see a single word from any of you guys responding or god forbid criticizing that, but we are used to the double standards.

Whether or not there was a kingdom of Israel in the year 0 doesn't matter. What matters is what was there in 1945. And it sure as fuck wasn't Israel.

It wasn't palestine either, again double standards.

 

[Seven]

The reality is that they will continue lose land as long as they refuse to sign a deal, I'm not for it personally but ignoring the fact is just irresponsible.

Coercing people into a deal is not negotiating.

And paying them to die isn't a disgrace? Didn't see a single word from any of you guys responding to that, but we are used to the double standards.

No one is saying Hamas is flawless. But there is still a significant difference in actually murdering people.

It wasn't palestine either, again double standards.

It sure looked more like Palestine back then.

 

[lgorTudor]

Yea, neutralizing assailants on your border is sure worse than sacrificing your 'brothers and sisters' for publicity The massive lengths ppl go to relativize, downplay or even justify the terrorists of Palestine.

 

[Seven]

Yea, neutralizing assailants on your border is sure worse than sacrificing your 'brothers and sisters' for publicity The massive lengths ppl go to relativize, downplay or even justify the terrorists of Palestine.

Only one party is using lethal force. It's not rocket science. Also, don't use the word neutralizing. And it's not assailants either. It's killing people.

 

[Azzurri7]

It wasn't palestine either, again double standards.

Typical Israel move, "lets change history".

 

[Tomice]

Only one party is using lethal force. It's not rocket science. Also, don't use the word neutralizing. And it's not assailants either. It's killing people.

So don't use the word murder, in my world words still have meanings. I can call it a mass suicide but it won't be right would it?

Look up the definition if you want to, but there is nothing premeditated about those death. Also the word murder can't be used to describe a defensive measure no matter how excessive or deplorable you may personally find it. I would also drop the word innocent as storming a border of another nation with the intent to breach it is not an innocent act.

50 dead out of 62 were hamas members. you can call them terrorist or freedom fighters but they are certainly neither innocent or civilian.

I don't appreciate the underhanded tactic of using inappropriate words like murder, massacre or genocide to hijack the moral high ground

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Typical Israel move, "lets change history".

How is that even debatable?

 

[Seven]

So don't use the word murder, in my world words still have meanings. I can call it a mass suicide but it won't be right would it?

Look up the definition if you want to, but there is nothing premeditated about those death. Also the word murder can't be used to describe a defensive measure no matter how excessive or deplorable you may personally find it. I would also drop the word innocent as storming a border of another nation with the intent to breach it is not an innocent act.

50 dead out of 62 were hamas members. you can call them terrorist or freedom fighters but they are certainly neither innocent or civilian.

I don't appreciate the underhanded tactic of using inappropriate words like murder, massacre or genocide to hijack the moral high ground

What? Of course there is. At the very least it's manslaughter. Hardly makes it look better. Suicide is actively taking your own life. Walking into a dangerous area and getting killed by a thug is not suicide. The thug still killed you. Everyone is doing their best to frame it differently, but it's bullshit. Israel kills these people.

Also, 12 lives mean absolutely nothing to you it seems. Just another statistic. Insanity.

I'm not hijacking anything by the way. Murder is murder. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Tomice]

What? Of course there is. At the very least it's manslaughter. Hardly makes it look better. Suicide is actively taking your own life. Walking into a dangerous area and getting killed by a thug is not suicide. The thug still killed you. Everyone is doing their best to frame it differently, but it's bullshit. Israel kills these people.

Also, 12 lives mean absolutely nothing to you it seems. Just another statistic. Insanity.

I'm not hijacking anything by the way. Murder is murder. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not saying it's a suicide , I was just demonstrating your baised use of words. And you don't have to kill yourself for it to be suicide, suicide by police is one example

Manslaughter isn't quite as catchy though, anyway it's unlawful killing at best. How can it possibly be premeditated? maybe you should look up another word definition, there is just no logical argument here.

The bolded part is just an obvious straw man argument, nothing here for me to respond

 

[Seven]

I'm not saying it's a suicide , I was just demonstrating your baised use of words.

Manslaughter isn't quite as catchy though. How can it possibly be premeditated? maybe you should look up another word definition, there is just no logical argument here.

The bolded part is just an obvious straw man argument, nothing here for me to respond

The bolded part is what you said. You don't account for 12 lives. Just doesn't matter to you apparently.

There is a difference between murder and manslaughter, yes. The case for murder could definitely be made here. But it hardly matters. You seem to believe manslaughter is somehow just fine. You don't seem to understand that killing another human being is the highest form of violence one person can inflict upon another person. Yet you seem to think it means nothing. Even if we were talking about self defense (and let's be perfectly honest, this is NOT about self defense), there are limits to that self defense. All response has to be proportional. When the response isn't proportional, we are talkin about manslaughter. There is just no way you can justify the killing of 62 people here. None.

Read this btw:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

According to the definition here, it is perfectly fine to call it what it is, murder.

And again, this is not about what sounds catchy. This is about being honest. It's not about assailants. It's not about 'removing terrorists'. It's about killing human beings. The fact you do not even seem to grasp the impact of killing another human being, is worrying to say the least.

 

[Tomice]

The bolded part is what you said. You don't account for 12 lives. Just doesn't matter to you apparently.

There is a difference between murder and manslaughter, yes. The case for murder could definitely be made here. But it hardly matters. You seem to believe manslaughter is somehow just fine. You don't seem to understand that killing another human being is the highest form of violence one person can inflict upon another person. Yet you seem to think it means nothing. Even if we were talking about self defense (and let's be perfectly honest, this is NOT about self defense), there are limits to that self defense. All response has to be proportional. When the response isn't proportional, we are talkin about manslaughter. There is just no way you can justify the killing of 62 people here. None.

Read this btw:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

According to the definition here, it is perfectly fine to call it what it is, murder.

I know the definition very well, I contended the argument that any of is premeditated so the link is redundant

Never said manslaughter or killing innocents is fine, if you want to keep using straw man argument throughout the discussion I see no point in this exercise.

I do account for them, 12 out of 62 definitely falls under the realm of collateral damage and proportional to the number of hostile dead, even that is assuming that all 12 had no malice intentions. Whether you support Hamas or not their members are by Israeli definition an hostile combatant and therefore not innocent or civilian. As such it's a legitimate killing under Israeli law and many other countries as well who designated Hamas as a terror organization.

 

[Seven]

I know the definition very well, I contended the argument that any of is premeditated.

Never said manslaughter is fine, if you want to keep using straw man argument throughout the discussion I see no point in this exercise.

I do account for them, 12 out of 62 definitely falls under the realm of collateral damage and proportional to the number of hostile dead. Whether you support Hamas or not their members are by Israeli definition an hostile combatant and therefore not innocent or civilian. As such it's a legitimate killing under Israeli law and many other countries as well who designated Hamas as a terror organization.

Are you fucking serious right now?

To say that it wasn't premeditated is being incredibly naive btw. Of course it was.

 

[Tomice]

Are you fucking serious right now?

To say that it wasn't premeditated is being incredibly naive btw. Of course it was.

Absolutely, why not?

You still haven't explained to me how can it be premeditated.

 

[Seven]

Absolutely, why not?

You still haven't explained to me how can it be premeditated.

Collateral damage of 12 people is understandable if you are in an actual war in an actual war zone. Not always right, but understandable. When you have a bunch of people at your border posing no real risk to your country's safety (or do we honestly believe they were somehow going to enslave all of Israel?), even the force used towards the actual terrorists has to be proportional. No fucking way is it justified to have 12 people dead as collateral damage over something that was no real risk you for to begin with. With self defense the threat has to be not only immediate, but also real. It just wasn't here.

There are many ways murder can be premeditated. Israel was perfectly aware of the circumstances. They had other means at their disposal too. They looked into the situation and decided to take these people out. It was a premeditated and deliberate decision to kill these people. Manslaughter requires you to handle 'in the heat of the moment' and without having had the intent to kill prior to that moment. Israel has had the intent to kill for decades. It's murder.

Btw my sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people is close to 0. I have no particular affinity with either side in this entire debate. But I would prefer a world in which major international players are held accountable for their actions just like the rest of us.

 

[Tomice]

Maybe you are truly more upset because I don't sugar coat every sentence to not offend your sensitive sense of justice. In that case please excuse me I just find it unproductive

 

[Seven]

Maybe you are truly more upset because I don't sugar coat every sentence to not offend your sensitive sense of justice. In that case please excuse me I just find it unproductive

I don't think you understand. I believe you are the one sugarcoating everything. That's the entire point.

 

[Tomice]

Collateral damage of 12 people is understandable if you are in an actual war in an actual war zone. Not always right, but understandable. When you have a bunch of people at your border posing no real risk to your country's safety (or do we honestly believe they were somehow going to enslave all of Israel?), even the force used towards the actual terrorists has to be proportional. No fucking way is it justified to have 12 people dead as collateral damage over something that was no real risk you for to begin with. With self defense the threat has to be not only immediate, but also real. It just wasn't here.

There are many ways murder can be premeditated. Israel was perfectly aware of the circumstances. They had other means at their disposal too. They looked into the situation and decided to take these people out. It was a premeditated and deliberate decision to kill these people. Manslaughter requires you to handle 'in the heat of the moment' and without having had the intent to kill prior to that moment. Israel has had the intent to kill for decades. It's murder.

Btw my sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people is close to 0. I have no particular affinity with either side in this entire debate. But I would prefer a world in which major international players are held accountable for their actions just like the rest of us.

We'll have to disagree on that.

If the border would have been breached, Israeli civilians would have died. It's a given.

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And regarding the premeditated stuff, I see it's just your opinion based on what you assume are Israel intent. Not a very strong case