Israeli-Palestinian conflict (53 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
31,474
There is no "settlers" unit or a "right wing" one, everyone serves together from every layer of society. Could there be an extremist or a genocidal person in a unit? sure , I actually said there are in that same post, but in the framing of a military the individual is insignificant, as said there can be incident, never a policy. Also being right wing or even a settler doesn't make you automatically a murderer or willing to kill uninvolved civilians, this is a completely perverse assumption, even within those groups those type of people are a minority, just as on the other side.

And as I said individuals can and have/will kill civilians unfortunately but it is never by an order. It cannot happen and it's is what we call a "black order" and a soldier is obliged to refuse it.
Either way, these are still real actions that have real consequences, whether done by individuals or not. But regardless, from the outside the amount of individual mistakes over many years make it look at best like the IDF is incompetent or leadership ineffectual, and at worst it looks a pattern. Even today, I'm sure you've seen it, what the hell is this supposed to be?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...nded-palestinian-jeep-during-raid-2024-06-22/

Yes. And I'm completely against the settlements as well if it wasn't clear. But I also think there are not the roadblock to peace as people make them out to be, there are solution to this. Might not be with the current make-up of this government but I haven't lost hope.
Good, then we're on the same page. I knew you were against settlements, so no worries. Neither Israelis or Palestinians will be completely satisfied with the result, but that goes without saying. Somehow though, people like Orgut seem to ignore that. Here's some New York Jews btw :touched:

This is how I took it. Still the point stand. But to your point and I think this is something people from the west especially are having hard time to come to terms with or simply downplay is the religious ideological element of the conflict and what do the Palestinians really want, Not all but a significant part of them at least.

Westerners (and I'm generalizing) and Pro-Palestinians, when interacting in English or with the west, are "westplaning" the aspirations of the Palestinian national movement. It is much more digestible to a westerner to hear that all they want is ending the "occupation", no one bother to actually listen to them, what is the occupation? is it 67 borders? or is it the whole thing? 2 state or one? The reality is far more complex then binary.

The Palestinians and their supporter's rhetoric in English and in Arabic are of completely different realities, When you only see the "kid meal warped in a bow" version of it I think you get a very distorted and simplified version of reality. Every poll you will look at shows about 50/50 spilt among regular Palestinians for the 2-state solution (not it's feasibility but on whether it's the final desired solution). Support for armed struggle is about the same. Every poll shows that voting between Abbas and Hamas in the west back will be landslide Hamas victory, voting for Hamas is not voting for armed resistance to Israeli occupation, it's voting for the complete destruction of the Jewish state.

Whether they vote like this due to Israeli action or that Israeli action and policies are due to theirs action is a bit of a chicken and the egg question. Arab mobs in the mandate have killed jews in terror attack many years before Israel was a country. This is why the conflict is more complex then people prefer to think. And we didn't even mention the wider geopolitical conflict this is just a part of, were more players then just the two sides have pull. Heck even the palastinians themself are split into two ideological entities.
Nah, I don't deny there is a religious aspect. There is for Israel too, afterall.

Well like I said, a good peace would end up being one where neither side is completely satisfied. Everything that you said above can also be applied to Jews as well. What do they want, is it 2 states? The whole thing like the retard I posted above? It can apply to anything really, what do Americans want America to look like? It's not something that can be used as an excuse in my opinion. To add to that as I know that you know, the longer this goes on, the more it will radicalize people.

Well yes, this is helpful to an Israeli government not seriously interested in the creation of a Palestinian state.

A Palestinian state and peace? You definitely have no idea dont you.
When you hear Palestinians who are inside our own government talking about Palestinians need to occupy Israel and basically saying in a less direct words (as he cant directly say it) that Israelis should stop existing. This is not media by the way - This is him live and I personally heard it so no miscomunication or any sort of propoganda.
And who is this guy? Probably one of the least extremist there are.

Also peace? It would have happened in seconds should the Palestinians really want to.

And last and not least - Genocide? You want Israel to stop the war? Tell them to bring back the hostages and it will immediately stop.

Contrary to what you said - There are mounts of evidence that what Im saying is true.

Hope it will put some sense into you as if it doesnt, nothing will.

You want one example - no problem. Take Jordan as an example - They actually wanted peace and since then there is 0 wars between the countries.
You're not actually saying anything.

But you're right man. Israelis are perfect, just, and do no wrong. Palestinians are inherently evil and all of them solely wish to kill all Jews, and it's all because they're cartoon villains that don't have actual capacity for reasoning and motivations! How fun!
 

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Orgut

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2002
18,972
Either way, these are still real actions that have real consequences, whether done by individuals or not. But regardless, from the outside the amount of individual mistakes over many years make it look at best like the IDF is incompetent or leadership ineffectual, and at worst it looks a pattern. Even today, I'm sure you've seen it, what the hell is this supposed to be?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...nded-palestinian-jeep-during-raid-2024-06-22/


Good, then we're on the same page. I knew you were against settlements, so no worries. Neither Israelis or Palestinians will be completely satisfied with the result, but that goes without saying. Somehow though, people like Orgut seem to ignore that. Here's some New York Jews btw :touched:


Nah, I don't deny there is a religious aspect. There is for Israel too, afterall.

Well like I said, a good peace would end up being one where neither side is completely satisfied. Everything that you said above can also be applied to Jews as well. What do they want, is it 2 states? The whole thing like the retard I posted above? It can apply to anything really, what do Americans want America to look like? It's not something that can be used as an excuse in my opinion. To add to that as I know that you know, the longer this goes on, the more it will radicalize people.

Well yes, this is helpful to an Israeli government not seriously interested in the creation of a Palestinian state.


You're not actually saying anything.

But you're right man. Israelis are perfect, just, and do no wrong. Palestinians are inherently evil and all of them solely wish to kill all Jews, and it's all because they're cartoon villains that don't have actual capacity for reasoning and motivations! How fun!
I never said Israel are perfect. These are your words not mine. I was just contradicting your absurd claims.
You stated "facts" while I stated facts!

As for the bold part - Please relate to what I have said and not what I havent.

I will gladly see some settlements given back if it means peace but its definitely not going to be the case. If one of the most reasonable ones says it - What do you expect from more radical ones. Contrary to you Im not talking about what the media says but more of what I have heard LIVE which is a huge difference.


Im right yeah I know I am, but about the things I have said and not the things I havent said and the last part is purely you taking my words out of context.

As for the peace thing - Israel want peace but do not believe in it - government I rather not talk about this government as I oppose it more than you think. Many of us oppose it.

Also you make peace with enemies and not with friends.
2 state solution? Maybe but not with this government and not with the Palestinians being taught to hate from the day they are born. and dont even try to contradict it as I personally got stones 5mm from my car while driving.

I hope there is peace in the end but the way things are going - World War 3 is way closer than peace between the sides.
 
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AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
31,474
I never said Israel are perfect. These are your words not mine. I was just contradicting your absurd claims.
You stated "facts" while I stated facts!

As for the bold part - Please relate to what I have said and not what I havent.

I will gladly see
some settlements given back if it means peace but its definitely not going to be the case. If one of the most reasonable ones says it - What do you expect from more radical ones. Contrary to you Im not talking about what the media says but more of what I have heard LIVE which is a huge difference.


Im right yeah I know I am, but about the things I have said and not the things I havent said and the last part is purely you taking my words out of context.

As for the peace thing - Israel want peace but do not believe in it - government I rather not talk about this government as I oppose it more than you think. Many of us oppose it.

Also you make peace with enemies and not with friends.
2 state solution? Maybe but not with this government and not with the Palestinians being taught to hate from the day they are born. and dont even try to contradict it as I personally got stones 5mm from my car while driving.

I hope there is peace in the end but the way things are going - World War 3 is way closer than peace between the sides.
We're done here.
 

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