"I support Muslims who love freedom" (1 Viewer)

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Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,217
#41
Why? Because we don't have to live in a world where everything is black and white. Wilders may be a jackass that I would never vote for, but that doesn't mean he can't make a point.

It's all about what kinds of conversations we want to have with each other. I have no idea about the truth value of anything he wrote and I'm not gonna pretend I care about checking it. But it's incredibly easy to dismiss an article like this for the factual errors (I presume) and thereby deny that there is anything truthful about it.

Do I care if he quoted the Koran correctly? Believe it or not, I couldn't care less. However, is it true that Islam drives people to apathy, submission and helplessness? That question I actually am curious about.
Couldn't this be said about the bible or koran too? Should we try to use science to prove or disprove events in the books as facts or could we try to know the meaning, the message behind the stories?
 

JuveJay

起死回生
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
58,738
#42
That happened in Saudi Arabia, guys. In Saudi Arabia they follow extremist ideas made by some guy on the 18th century claiming that it is the real Islam. Islam is 15 centuries old. You can not base your opinion on a religion because of stupid acts of some of the followers that have nothing to do with the religion principles.
Interesting you should mention the age of the religion, I think by 2200 we will see a very different Islam.
 
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Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,811
#43
Couldn't this be said about the bible or koran too? Should we try to use science to prove or disprove events in the books as facts or could we try to know the meaning, the message behind the stories?
I don't know what you're talking about, because I didn't bring up any of this. Use science to disprove events in the books? You must be in the wrong thread.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,217
#44
I meant that there could be some factual errors in these "holy" books but that shouldn't prove that the books are wrong or dismissed.

And in my humble opinion if you don't care if they quoted the koran badly, why even ask these questions, it shows that you don't care about the answers provided, because you already have your own answers in the head, and there is absolutely nothing that would change them. So why do this?
 

Alen

Senior Member
Apr 2, 2007
49,038
#45
icεmαή;2616215 said:
Okay I went till here. As a rule of thumb, I generally do not comment about religions on the forum. But I do read the articles. That statement is wrong and taken out of context. Actually not even taken out of context. Just blatantly manipulated. The verse (the verse number is wrong its 43:17 I believe) says the fathers face turns black when he sees a daughter. This was before Islam came into the life of the people of Mecca. Not during or after Islam. The Quraish used to bury their daughters alive at birth. The sura goes on to tell that they'll be accountable for what they did to their daughters.
I hate it when people do that. And I hate it even more that twisting words, taking them out of context and manipulating facts sells more books than a serious research and well written book that took years and years for the author to write. :(
 
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Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,811
#46
I meant that there could be some factual errors in these "holy" books but that shouldn't prove that the books are wrong or dismissed.

And in my humble opinion if you don't care if they quoted the koran badly, why even ask these questions, it shows that you don't care about the answers provided, because you already have your own answers in the head, and there is absolutely nothing that would change them. So why do this?
Do you have some kind of issue with me right now or just bored?

  1. I didn't say anything about checking facts in holy books. I was talking about the possibility that Geert has factual errors in his article, pertaining to the Koran (which seems to be the case since everyone is saying it).
  2. "Factual errors in holy books don't make them invalid" (hope that paraphrasing is acceptable to you). That depends entirely on what these books purport to be. If we are supposed to use them as an encyclopedia to look up knowledge in, then if they are factually wrong it gravely undermines their credibility. Would you rely on an encyclopedia like this? If they are not meant to actually contain facts, and they are purely stories, then we should examine the content of these stories to see what they are trying to tell us, wouldn't you say? So what is the message of Noah's ark then?
  3. I don't care if he misquoted the Koran, because I don't even care enough about what's in it to read it myself. What I'm interested in is how religion impacts individuals and groups. So no, it's not true that I don't care about the answers.
  4. And neither is it true that nothing could change my mind. I'm not a fundamentalist, I haven't taken a vow to never change my mind. I'm open to it and it happens all the time.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,217
#47
No I have nothing against you. reading you'r 1 and 2 points it seems i have confused you with someone else.

As for the answers if you are really looking for them, then imo you're looking for the wrong ones.
 

icemaη

Rab's Husband - The Regista
Moderator
Aug 27, 2008
30,251
#50
Do you have some kind of issue with me right now or just bored?

  1. I didn't say anything about checking facts in holy books. I was talking about the possibility that Geert has factual errors in his article, pertaining to the Koran (which seems to be the case since everyone is saying it).
  2. "Factual errors in holy books don't make them invalid" (hope that paraphrasing is acceptable to you). That depends entirely on what these books purport to be. If we are supposed to use them as an encyclopedia to look up knowledge in, then if they are factually wrong it gravely undermines their credibility. Would you rely on an encyclopedia like this? If they are not meant to actually contain facts, and they are purely stories, then we should examine the content of these stories to see what they are trying to tell us, wouldn't you say? So what is the message of Noah's ark then?
  3. I don't care if he misquoted the Koran, because I don't even care enough about what's in it to read it myself. What I'm interested in is how religion impacts individuals and groups. So no, it's not true that I don't care about the answers.
  4. And neither is it true that nothing could change my mind. I'm not a fundamentalist, I haven't taken a vow to never change my mind. I'm open to it and it happens all the time.
-rep for making the post look small and not Cronios-esque :D
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759
#51
Well, relatively I see him the worst currently.

I too think he's the worst, that doesn't mean he's the biggest tyrant though.

Selling yourself short to Israel and closing the borders on Palestinians, no current Arab president has done anything as terrible as that. But the writer i think was talking strictly about dictatorship.

I don't know enough about Islam to comment on the overall post, but if that part you quoted is true is is horrific and shameful, that is a disgrace to humanity. We are humans above all else
Its not a surprise at all that these things happen in Saudi Arabia. A lot worse things happen and are endorsed by the so called "committee for the promotion of virtue and prevention of sin" which is a sham altogether.

If you're interested, look up Wahabism, the majority of the muslim population do not subscribe to the Wahhabi's extremist thoughts though, so i'd say that in no way is it representative of Islam.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759
#54
Well for one you cannot be interested in anything to do with Islam, without being interested in the Koran.
 
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Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,811
#55
Well for one you cannot be interested in anything to do with Islam, without being interested in the Koran.
I'm interested in the broad strokes of it. I'm not interested in the details "eat meat on Fridays instead of Saturdays" because that's arbitrary. For example what Wilders wrote about Islam being different from Christianity and Judaism in that god is far removed from humans, he's not a father, he's a creature to fear. I don't know if that's true, but that kinda stuff is highly relevant.

Strangely enough when I raise a topic dealing with a broad view I can rarely get a good conversation going, because people have already had their bites "digested" for them and they're not interested in an open examination of what the faith is.
 
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Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,811
#56
Btw I did actually start reading it a while back, but it was too boring. It's like the law, do you care what the law says word for word or do you care more about how it makes people behave..
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,279
#57
Martin basically wants us to make a movie of the book he refuses to read. Kinda like how most get around the summer reading assignment in middle school :D
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
59,855
#58
its more of glove slap to the face when you bring as a reference/precursor to a theological discussion a piece written by a racist moron. if your interest is genuine i suggest you take an academic class given by a doctor on the subject.
 
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Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,811
#59
Martin basically wants us to make a movie of the book he refuses to read. Kinda like how most get around the summer reading assignment in middle school :D
I read books like everyday, for the last several years there's no time at which I'm not currently on some book, usually more than one. In the last 6 months I've read 3500 pages of Italian alone. But let's face it, holy books are not great works of literature.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
40,759
#60
I read books like everyday, for the last several years there's no time at which I'm not currently on some book, usually more than one. But let's face it, holy books are not great works of literature.
You wouldn't say that if you knew Arabic.
 
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